A new yataghan

katana · 27th December 2011, 10:40 PM

Very, very nice

, if you have any 'construction' photo's ....especially of the hilt and how it was fixed to the tang, I would be grateful if you could post them.

Kind Regards David

delor · 27th December 2011, 11:14 PM

Thanks !
Yes I have many photos of the whole making process. Maybe it's better to start with the beginning and the blade forging :

The commission was mainly based on a single drawing, and a common agreement to decide on the embellishments details "on the way".
The blade was made of 60Ni20 and 80CrV2 steels, (choosen for their bright and gray colors after etching), which were forge folded up to more than 1200 layers.
Then the blade was forged out of the folded billet, and finally roughly buffed.

delor · 27th December 2011, 11:33 PM

The next step was to do a better grinding / buffing. A wooden handle was made at the same time, for the customer to see what the whole thing will look like...
Then came the heat treatments and a long polishing phase to reveal the final steel pattern.

delor · 27th December 2011, 11:46 PM

The handle parts, and other fittings were first made of jewellery wax, then bronze casted, and finally silver plated.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th December 2011, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delor

The handle parts, and other fittings were first made of jewellery wax, then bronze casted, and finally silver plated.

Salaams delor ~ I think that is just so very impressive... The photo record is superb ....Magnificent work ! Some of the best workshop technique I have ever seen.... Shukran !!

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ALEX · 28th December 2011, 02:20 PM

Delor,
Good work overall, considering the requirements. I understand that you've been asked not to engrave/chisel the fittings, and to bronze-cast and plate instead, etc. Essentially, your client asked for a "custom job" based on his/her preferences, not on “historical” accuracy. Speaking of fittings: from standpoint of comparing to traditional techniques - they cannot even be compared, other than based on shape and overall look, which is not wise thing to do. I do not like the fittings, they look like furniture embellishments from the hardware store (the better ones have finer and crispier details, sorry). The scabbard itself is not of proper form for yataghan! in my opinion - it falls short on these two points.

delor · 28th December 2011, 03:27 PM

Alex,
you are right to point out these two issues, and this is the exact difference between custom job and historical accuracy.

The fittings had to be casted, because it was the client request to get the same aspect as the one you will find with most of the modern sword / sabers. The design was taken from antique yataghans, so the global shape and general design are the same, but - as you precisely said - the object completely differs from the genuine model because the technic is not the same (this I would like to discuss later).

The scabbard design has also been a difficult issue to me. Because of the overall bending of the blade I had to make it quite large, and it makes it look something like a black sea yataghan scabbard. Of course I have noticed that genuine scabbards are usually narrower. This makes no problem when the yataghan has a straight blade, but when it has a more bended blade, I don't see how it's possible. Would there possibly be a split at the aperture, just like some others sabers ? I never saw this on a yataghan scabbard, but couldn't examine much anyway... so if you have any clues or explanations on this issue, I would greatly appreciate !

Some words about the historical accuracy and the use of one technic or another. My opinion is that the only way to reach (or should I say try to reach) historical accuracy, is to keep on using the exact same technics as those ancient craftsmen used to. Only then, with the same tools, and trying to reach the same skill, sometimes you see that the result is going to be OK, and you start feeling you're walking the same path the ancestors did.
At the opposite, using different technics will bring you to some different point which might sometimes be close to the genuine object. But always the "flavour" will be different, and an experienced eye will always notice the differences.

Thank you very much for your critical review. This is exactly what I was looking for by posting in this forum. I hope you will be so kind to answer my questions about the scabbard design, if you can help...
... and I also hope that I will have the opportunity to show you some more historically accurate work in the coming monthes (by the way, I might have two commissions planned for 2012 : a shaska and a kindjal, with chiseled / embossing traditional work on both of them).

Kind regards,
Bernard

PS : I apologize for my english speaking which might look a bit "frenchy". Hope it remains understandable...at least !

27th December 2011, 11:14 PM	#2
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Thanks ! Yes I have many photos of the whole making process. Maybe it's better to start with the beginning and the blade forging : The commission was mainly based on a single drawing, and a common agreement to decide on the embellishments details "on the way". The blade was made of 60Ni20 and 80CrV2 steels, (choosen for their bright and gray colors after etching), which were forge folded up to more than 1200 layers. Then the blade was forged out of the folded billet, and finally roughly buffed. Attached Images

27th December 2011, 11:33 PM	#3
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	The next step was to do a better grinding / buffing. A wooden handle was made at the same time, for the customer to see what the whole thing will look like... Then came the heat treatments and a long polishing phase to reveal the final steel pattern. Attached Images

27th December 2011, 11:46 PM	#4
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	The handle parts, and other fittings were first made of jewellery wax, then bronze casted, and finally silver plated. Attached Images

27th December 2011, 10:40 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Very, very nice , if you have any 'construction' photo's ....especially of the hilt and how it was fixed to the tang, I would be grateful if you could post them. Kind Regards David

28th December 2011, 02:20 PM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Delor, Good work overall, considering the requirements. I understand that you've been asked not to engrave/chisel the fittings, and to bronze-cast and plate instead, etc. Essentially, your client asked for a "custom job" based on his/her preferences, not on “historical” accuracy. Speaking of fittings: from standpoint of comparing to traditional techniques - they cannot even be compared, other than based on shape and overall look, which is not wise thing to do. I do not like the fittings, they look like furniture embellishments from the hardware store (the better ones have finer and crispier details, sorry). The scabbard itself is not of proper form for yataghan! in my opinion - it falls short on these two points.

28th December 2011, 03:27 PM	#7
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Alex, you are right to point out these two issues, and this is the exact difference between custom job and historical accuracy. The fittings had to be casted, because it was the client request to get the same aspect as the one you will find with most of the modern sword / sabers. The design was taken from antique yataghans, so the global shape and general design are the same, but - as you precisely said - the object completely differs from the genuine model because the technic is not the same (this I would like to discuss later). The scabbard design has also been a difficult issue to me. Because of the overall bending of the blade I had to make it quite large, and it makes it look something like a black sea yataghan scabbard. Of course I have noticed that genuine scabbards are usually narrower. This makes no problem when the yataghan has a straight blade, but when it has a more bended blade, I don't see how it's possible. Would there possibly be a split at the aperture, just like some others sabers ? I never saw this on a yataghan scabbard, but couldn't examine much anyway... so if you have any clues or explanations on this issue, I would greatly appreciate ! Some words about the historical accuracy and the use of one technic or another. My opinion is that the only way to reach (or should I say try to reach) historical accuracy, is to keep on using the exact same technics as those ancient craftsmen used to. Only then, with the same tools, and trying to reach the same skill, sometimes you see that the result is going to be OK, and you start feeling you're walking the same path the ancestors did. At the opposite, using different technics will bring you to some different point which might sometimes be close to the genuine object. But always the "flavour" will be different, and an experienced eye will always notice the differences. Thank you very much for your critical review. This is exactly what I was looking for by posting in this forum. I hope you will be so kind to answer my questions about the scabbard design, if you can help... ... and I also hope that I will have the opportunity to show you some more historically accurate work in the coming monthes (by the way, I might have two commissions planned for 2012 : a shaska and a kindjal, with chiseled / embossing traditional work on both of them). Kind regards, Bernard PS : I apologize for my english speaking which might look a bit "frenchy". Hope it remains understandable...at least !