Afghan military saber for translation request

Dom · 24th December 2011, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

DOM, the cartouches are not in Arabic but the date is written in Arabic, which is why I said it is peculiar.

Hi
on mode vernacular, Arabic vocabulary is present as well as, in Persan, Pachtou, Ourdou ..and sure, some other languages
for instance, I've a "Pala" with 2 cartouches in Turkish, no understanding
BUT ... , the 3rd, a small cartouche where in mentioned ; owner name, and date, every thing it's like in Arabic, does it's Arabic really, I dunno
may be comun to all those languages

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

Also if we go the Lunar way and put the age at 1880 something (don't remember what year you wrote)

I'm using a "dates converter"

http://www.islamicfinder.org/dateCon...&date_result=1

à +

Dom

AJ1356 · 24th December 2011, 12:24 PM

The above mentioned languages is influenced by Arabic, as in Arabic or Arabic based letters are used. They are thier own individual languages and anyone familiar with them would not mistake one with another. For example Arabic has 28 letters Farsi has 32 letters Pashto has somewhere around 44 and Urdu falls somewhere between the 2. Now I read write and speak Farsi and Pashtu, with a little understanding of Arabic and much more of Urdu. The date converter is all dandy except I bet it is based on Lunar. On this side of the world we use Hijree Shamsi (Solar). As you know every 100 Lunar years equals to roughly 94 Solar years that is why ه ق is at 1433 while ه ش is at 1390 both have the same start date. I hope all this explains why I said what I said

The sword above has the blade from this type of sword, one can notice the stamped seal and also 13 for the first digits of the year. http://www.geocities.ws/ar0se/Arms/afghan/afghan.html
I still need better pictures to get to the bottom of the translation.

Addition after my correction above: I showed the pictures to someone else who thinks the sword is new not old.

Dom · 24th December 2011, 12:59 PM

very funny ...
If neither of the Arab, the Farsi, or Pashto, or even Urdu, there is only the Turk

beside some other languages using the Arabic alphabet

expecting that our "Brother" Zifir, will have some time, to give us his point of view ...

might be he has the "mouftar el bab" (the door key) ... the solution key

anyway very intriguing

à +

Dom

AJ1356 · 24th December 2011, 01:11 PM

I actually never looked closely at the poems, I only did the date part. I was looking at it earlier and wrote it down partly, it is in Farsi. But a picture without flash or clearer would help me see parts of it better and make sense of it. I am not familiar with this poem so I can not fill in the blanks.

Dom · 24th December 2011, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

wrote it down partly, it is in Farsi.

Bravo alek
slowly, the veil began to lift up

à +

Dom

RSWORD · 27th December 2011, 03:42 AM

I apologize for my delay in responding. I have been away on travels. Interesting discussing so far and am happy to provide some better pictures to hopefully continue the discussion. Will do so within a few days. Cheers.

Jim McDougall · 27th December 2011, 06:27 AM

Interesting to see these type Afghan swords come up, and well observed by Dom in post #5...there is indeed a powerful similitude in the sword in the photo to these.
I first noticed the same when I acquired one of these some years ago and saw this photo in a book titled "Northwest Frontier" (Arthur Swinson, 1967).
The tall man in the photo wearing the similar hilt sword is General Daod Shah, a Ghilzai tribesman and the commander in chief for Amir Mohammed Yukub Khan of Afghanistan. The photo was May of 1879 at the signing of the Treaty of Gandamak, which unfortunately did not cease hostilities forthwith.

While this particular sword has considerable embellishment, many Afghan swords, especially of this type, were stamped with a cartouche containing the mosque and mihrab facing Mecca. Though presumed to represent the Blue Mosque at Mazir i Sharif that is not definitively established, and most of the dates on the swords with the stamp range from c.1893 into 1904 with many undated.
The mosque image became the official device on the Afghan flag around 1901 but was clearly used during the reigh of Abdur Rahman Khan from 1880 unti, his death in 1901....under his son Habibullah Khan the flag was designed and used until end of the 3rd Anglo-Afghan war 1919.

During the conflicts and into the 3rd Anglo Afghan war, many of these type swords were in use, many refurbished either in the Kabul armoury and many by the tribal lashkars which augmented the regular Afghan army. This is likely the reason a number of these kinds of hilts are found on the familiar Khyber knife blades.

It will be interesting to know more on the date shown here as the character of the embellishment suggests possible influential status for this sword.

24th December 2011, 12:24 PM	#2
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	The above mentioned languages is influenced by Arabic, as in Arabic or Arabic based letters are used. They are thier own individual languages and anyone familiar with them would not mistake one with another. For example Arabic has 28 letters Farsi has 32 letters Pashto has somewhere around 44 and Urdu falls somewhere between the 2. Now I read write and speak Farsi and Pashtu, with a little understanding of Arabic and much more of Urdu. The date converter is all dandy except I bet it is based on Lunar. On this side of the world we use Hijree Shamsi (Solar). As you know every 100 Lunar years equals to roughly 94 Solar years that is why ه ق is at 1433 while ه ش is at 1390 both have the same start date. I hope all this explains why I said what I said The sword above has the blade from this type of sword, one can notice the stamped seal and also 13 for the first digits of the year. http://www.geocities.ws/ar0se/Arms/afghan/afghan.html I still need better pictures to get to the bottom of the translation. Addition after my correction above: I showed the pictures to someone else who thinks the sword is new not old. Last edited by AJ1356; 24th December 2011 at 01:07 PM.

27th December 2011, 06:27 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Interesting to see these type Afghan swords come up, and well observed by Dom in post #5...there is indeed a powerful similitude in the sword in the photo to these. I first noticed the same when I acquired one of these some years ago and saw this photo in a book titled "Northwest Frontier" (Arthur Swinson, 1967). The tall man in the photo wearing the similar hilt sword is General Daod Shah, a Ghilzai tribesman and the commander in chief for Amir Mohammed Yukub Khan of Afghanistan. The photo was May of 1879 at the signing of the Treaty of Gandamak, which unfortunately did not cease hostilities forthwith. While this particular sword has considerable embellishment, many Afghan swords, especially of this type, were stamped with a cartouche containing the mosque and mihrab facing Mecca. Though presumed to represent the Blue Mosque at Mazir i Sharif that is not definitively established, and most of the dates on the swords with the stamp range from c.1893 into 1904 with many undated. The mosque image became the official device on the Afghan flag around 1901 but was clearly used during the reigh of Abdur Rahman Khan from 1880 unti, his death in 1901....under his son Habibullah Khan the flag was designed and used until end of the 3rd Anglo-Afghan war 1919. During the conflicts and into the 3rd Anglo Afghan war, many of these type swords were in use, many refurbished either in the Kabul armoury and many by the tribal lashkars which augmented the regular Afghan army. This is likely the reason a number of these kinds of hilts are found on the familiar Khyber knife blades. It will be interesting to know more on the date shown here as the character of the embellishment suggests possible influential status for this sword. Attached Images

24th December 2011, 12:59 PM	#3
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	very funny ... If neither of the Arab, the Farsi, or Pashto, or even Urdu, there is only the Turk beside some other languages using the Arabic alphabet expecting that our "Brother" Zifir, will have some time, to give us his point of view ... might be he has the "mouftar el bab" (the door key) ... the solution key anyway very intriguing à + Dom

24th December 2011, 01:11 PM	#4
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	I actually never looked closely at the poems, I only did the date part. I was looking at it earlier and wrote it down partly, it is in Farsi. But a picture without flash or clearer would help me see parts of it better and make sense of it. I am not familiar with this poem so I can not fill in the blanks.

27th December 2011, 03:42 AM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	I apologize for my delay in responding. I have been away on travels. Interesting discussing so far and am happy to provide some better pictures to hopefully continue the discussion. Will do so within a few days. Cheers.