Barbary States Dagger

Aurangzeb · 10th August 2005, 12:09 AM

Hi all!

Do the circle desgiens on the hilt have to do with the "Evil Eye" because I haver seen flissya's with a similer desigen on the sheath from Algeria? Such as the one on Page-23 of "African Arms and Armour". Whould anyone happen to know what Morocco's association with the Barbary States piracy in the 19th. century?

Emanuel · 11th August 2005, 08:37 PM

Hello Aurangzeb,

The Barbary Coast had its capital in Algiers, Algeria, also comprising the coastal parts of Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt. Here's some old maps of it.
http://www.oldmapsbooks.com/MapPage/.../57542barb.htm

Manolo

Tim Simmons · 11th August 2005, 08:50 PM

Hello Mark,
I think you made a good chioce of knife, you get a lot of good, real knife for your money with these unlike other curved North African knives, unless you pay a small fortune.

Tim

Aurangzeb · 11th August 2005, 11:26 PM

Hi All!

Thanks for the help with it and the Barbary Coast map!

Aurangzeb · 28th August 2005, 04:14 AM

Hello All!

Just found this web site witha dagger similer to a khodmi in a veg way.

http://richmondthenandnow.com/Newspa...sh-Dagger.html

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 28th August 2005, 08:21 PM

Hello All!

I plan on remaking the lanyard how long should it be? Any advice on this whould be appreciated.

Mark...

Jim McDougall · 28th August 2005, 10:10 PM

The edged weapons of these North African regions are as can be seen, extremely difficult to be exact in identifying due to extreme diffusion and hybridization. While this example has every prospect to include it with the 'khodmi' group, it may well be more specifically the common peasant knife known as a 'mous' (mu). In "Knives and Daggers" by Zdenek Faktor (Hamlyn, 1989, pp.30-31) these are described, "...exclusively folk or peasant weapon is the knife known as the mu. Single edged straight or curved blade, usually engraved with quotations from the Koran and simple wooden handle. The sheaths of Moroccan daggers are equipped with a ring to which a silk cord is tied. The dagger is worn on the left hip and the silk cord loops over the right shoulder".
In the illustrations of these in the reference the handle is simple as wooden as described, and with rounded end as yours, however they are guardless, and the blades are much narrower typically, similar to the Moroccan s'boula.
Certain features on your example suggest Algerian influence, including the guard, which seems more prevalent on certain Algerian knives and edged weapons there. Also, the interesting circular motif which appears actually is possibly associated with similar Central Asian symbols with ancient ancestry that relates to either sun worship or possibly a symbolic shield, either of these remaining uncertain. In any case, these symbols occur on weapons in Afghanistan and especially the Balkans, from where Ottoman association would have carried into North Africa as it did certainly in Algeria.

With prevalent Berber tribal movement between Morocco's eastern Saharan regions and Algeria, it would seem that these would be quite likely for the provenance of this dagger. As always, geographic boundaries often have little to do with the identification of ethnographic weapons in most cases, especially in North Africa.

Best regards,
Jim

11th August 2005, 08:50 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Hello Mark, I think you made a good chioce of knife, you get a lot of good, real knife for your money with these unlike other curved North African knives, unless you pay a small fortune. Tim Attached Images

10th August 2005, 12:09 AM	#1
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi all! Do the circle desgiens on the hilt have to do with the "Evil Eye" because I haver seen flissya's with a similer desigen on the sheath from Algeria? Such as the one on Page-23 of "African Arms and Armour". Whould anyone happen to know what Morocco's association with the Barbary States piracy in the 19th. century?

11th August 2005, 08:37 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Aurangzeb, The Barbary Coast had its capital in Algiers, Algeria, also comprising the coastal parts of Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt. Here's some old maps of it. http://www.oldmapsbooks.com/MapPage/.../57542barb.htm Manolo

11th August 2005, 11:26 PM	#4
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi All! Thanks for the help with it and the Barbary Coast map!

28th August 2005, 04:14 AM	#5
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello All! Just found this web site witha dagger similer to a khodmi in a veg way. http://richmondthenandnow.com/Newspa...sh-Dagger.html Mark...

28th August 2005, 08:21 PM	#6
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello All! I plan on remaking the lanyard how long should it be? Any advice on this whould be appreciated. Mark...

28th August 2005, 10:10 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	The edged weapons of these North African regions are as can be seen, extremely difficult to be exact in identifying due to extreme diffusion and hybridization. While this example has every prospect to include it with the 'khodmi' group, it may well be more specifically the common peasant knife known as a 'mous' (mu). In "Knives and Daggers" by Zdenek Faktor (Hamlyn, 1989, pp.30-31) these are described, "...exclusively folk or peasant weapon is the knife known as the mu. Single edged straight or curved blade, usually engraved with quotations from the Koran and simple wooden handle. The sheaths of Moroccan daggers are equipped with a ring to which a silk cord is tied. The dagger is worn on the left hip and the silk cord loops over the right shoulder". In the illustrations of these in the reference the handle is simple as wooden as described, and with rounded end as yours, however they are guardless, and the blades are much narrower typically, similar to the Moroccan s'boula. Certain features on your example suggest Algerian influence, including the guard, which seems more prevalent on certain Algerian knives and edged weapons there. Also, the interesting circular motif which appears actually is possibly associated with similar Central Asian symbols with ancient ancestry that relates to either sun worship or possibly a symbolic shield, either of these remaining uncertain. In any case, these symbols occur on weapons in Afghanistan and especially the Balkans, from where Ottoman association would have carried into North Africa as it did certainly in Algeria. With prevalent Berber tribal movement between Morocco's eastern Saharan regions and Algeria, it would seem that these would be quite likely for the provenance of this dagger. As always, geographic boundaries often have little to do with the identification of ethnographic weapons in most cases, especially in North Africa. Best regards, Jim