Decipher script on Left Handed Dagger?

Cathey · 18th December 2011, 02:26 AM

Left Handed DaggerDate: c1600
Nationality: Europe? (German or Italian I think)
Overall Length: 51.5 cm
Blade length: 36.2
Blade widest point: 2.047
Inside grip length: 8.3 cm

Left Handed dagger, cross guard and pommel decorated with foliage and doves in silver relief. Ornately engraved blade with 3 panels of words possibly Latin, a knight in Armour, Doves and foliage. Grip wrapped in silver wire with Turks heads top and bottom.

General Remarks
The writing on the blade is so flowery it is hard to decipher the letters let alone the language.

I have tried to blow up the three panels of text as best I can, any help in deciphering the letters and or language will be very much appreciated.

Cheers Cathey

Matchlock · 18th December 2011, 05:15 PM

The inscriptions are in Latin.
At the moment I can only decipher the first illustrated zoom-up with the very common motto

I te Domine speravi - In Thee God I Trust.
Non confundar in aeternum - And I Will Not Perish In Eternity (from the Te Deum, with colloquial misspellings).

The second close-up starts

In the speravimus - In Thee we Trust.
?

Best,
Michael

Cathey · 19th December 2011, 10:18 AM

Hi Michael

Thanks for that, I was struggling with the flowery text. I thought it was either going to be Latin or Italian. Latin script appears a common choice on rapiers from this period. Any thoughts on the country of origin, I am leaning towards Italian rather than German at this stage.

Cheers Cathey

Cathey · 2nd January 2012, 04:37 AM

In my continuing hunt to pin point the origin and decipher the text on this dagger I found a very similar example (although in much poorer condition) that sold at Thomas Del Mar in June and is apparently English 1660. With this information I have updated the description of my dagger as follows:

Left Handed dagger circa 1660,possibly English.
Iron hilt comprising a pair of short quillions with flattened globular terminals, large compressed side ring, and flattened spherical pommel, decorated with foliage and various birds in silver relief. Ornately engraved tapering blade with 3 panels of words in Latin, A knight in Armour, various birds and foliage. Grip wrapped in silver wire with Turks heads top and bottom.

At this stage I agree with the general view that the text is Latin and may come from the Te Deum. I managed to find a full translation of the Te Derun in English; however given the style of the script I am still unable to be certain of the exact translation.

I have re-photographed the three passages of text on each side with a high macro lense and I am hopeful that someone might have another go at interpreting the possible translation. The first two passages on both sides appear the same, the third however appears different.

Cheers Cathey

Cathey · 2nd January 2012, 04:42 AM

The text as it appears on each side of the blade, the translation of the Te deum and the Thomas Del Mar Dagger of similar style.

fernando · 2nd January 2012, 12:52 PM

Precious info !
Thanks for sharing.

18th December 2011, 02:26 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Decipher script on Left Handed Dagger? Left Handed DaggerDate: c1600 Nationality: Europe? (German or Italian I think) Overall Length: 51.5 cm Blade length: 36.2 Blade widest point: 2.047 Inside grip length: 8.3 cm Left Handed dagger, cross guard and pommel decorated with foliage and doves in silver relief. Ornately engraved blade with 3 panels of words possibly Latin, a knight in Armour, Doves and foliage. Grip wrapped in silver wire with Turks heads top and bottom. General Remarks The writing on the blade is so flowery it is hard to decipher the letters let alone the language. I have tried to blow up the three panels of text as best I can, any help in deciphering the letters and or language will be very much appreciated. Cheers Cathey Attached Images

18th December 2011, 05:15 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The inscriptions are in Latin. At the moment I can only decipher the first illustrated zoom-up with the very common motto I te Domine speravi - In Thee God I Trust. Non confundar in aeternum - And I Will Not Perish In Eternity (from the Te Deum, with colloquial misspellings). The second close-up starts In the speravimus - In Thee we Trust. ? Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 18th December 2011 at 05:48 PM.

2nd January 2012, 04:37 AM	#4
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Decipher script on Left Handed Dagger? In my continuing hunt to pin point the origin and decipher the text on this dagger I found a very similar example (although in much poorer condition) that sold at Thomas Del Mar in June and is apparently English 1660. With this information I have updated the description of my dagger as follows: Left Handed dagger circa 1660,possibly English. Iron hilt comprising a pair of short quillions with flattened globular terminals, large compressed side ring, and flattened spherical pommel, decorated with foliage and various birds in silver relief. Ornately engraved tapering blade with 3 panels of words in Latin, A knight in Armour, various birds and foliage. Grip wrapped in silver wire with Turks heads top and bottom. At this stage I agree with the general view that the text is Latin and may come from the Te Deum. I managed to find a full translation of the Te Derun in English; however given the style of the script I am still unable to be certain of the exact translation. I have re-photographed the three passages of text on each side with a high macro lense and I am hopeful that someone might have another go at interpreting the possible translation. The first two passages on both sides appear the same, the third however appears different. Cheers Cathey Attached Images

2nd January 2012, 04:42 AM	#5
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	The text as it appears on each side of the blade, the translation of the Te deum and the Thomas Del Mar Dagger of similar style. Attached Images

2nd January 2012, 12:52 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	TE DEUM Precious info ! Thanks for sharing.

19th December 2011, 10:18 AM	#3
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Hi Michael Thanks for that, I was struggling with the flowery text. I thought it was either going to be Latin or Italian. Latin script appears a common choice on rapiers from this period. Any thoughts on the country of origin, I am leaning towards Italian rather than German at this stage. Cheers Cathey