Indian sword for ID

eftihis · 9th December 2011, 07:02 AM

Hi, here is another of the "zulfikar" variation, i once had in my collection.

ariel · 9th December 2011, 01:49 PM

Guys, the pattern seems to be wider than I thought

Perhaps, it is not an anomaly and, based on the sturdiness of the blades, not a parade one as well.
Most importantly, the Dhu-l-Faqar samples absolutely negate Hindu sacrificial function.

Stan S. · 9th December 2011, 02:37 PM

I still think the incurved mid-section of the blade could indicate a sacrifical purpose. It ofcourse could be juts a random feature but to me it looks like something well suited to fit cattle's neck. The blade being sharp is another indication of this theory. Are there any nicks to the edge that could be a result of an actual usage? If so, what part of teh blade is nicked?

Jim McDougall · 9th December 2011, 06:54 PM

It is always tempting and often compelling to attempt to explain unusual or even somewhat fanciful designs in ethnographic edged weapons blades, and as described by Christopher Spring in his "African Arms and Armour" the West typically has the need to find such explanations in these unusual ethnographic forms.

Much of this phenomenon has of course evolved from the countless 'exotic' weapons brought back from colonial campaigns and international expansion in recent centuries. It seems that many catalog descriptions seen through the years have developed an almost cliche' pattern of assigning terms such as 'executioners' or 'sacrificial' to many weapons with dramatically exaggerated features in the blade size or shape.

Examples of this can be seen in the often dramatic and almost fanciful blades on many African edged weapons; in the frightening choppers and arms brought out in volume after the Boxer Rebellion in China; and of course many other instances from many other cultures. Much of the romanticized and flowery descriptions in narratives and literature of Victorian times (which gave us fanciful terms like 'scimitar') also were often the foundation for 'collectors terms' with most of these evolving through transliteration and base misunderstanding by writers and perpetuated by thier readers.

In my perception, many ethnographic weapon and particularly blade forms derive from iconographic sources. Many of these are quite ancient and in friezes or sculptures such as described in India, and appear to be in many cases to have profoundly influenced many of these blade forms . These are typically depictive of intense mythological dramas in the heritage of the Hindu Faith, and may be of course considered interpretive in some degree , with these blade forms perhaps illustrated in accord with thier portrayal suitably emphasized in form.
In most cases it is considered that these are keenly accurate, however some of the more dramatic blade forms apparantly suggesting use in combat defy understanding of their actual practicality. Many of these forms said to have been used by the Nayar warriors have become the votive forms used in Temple rituals, and produced in accord with these early forms. The forward curves and dramatically shaped blades on these are votive and presumably used processionally, often with jingles and other apotropaic devices or motif added.

Unless we find evidence of one of these used in the actual Karma Kanda application in Vedic ritual, as we have with examples of the kora, kukri and ram dao in Bengal, Nepal regions, I feel this type weapon is distinctly representative of traditional Indian forms as described.

Stan S. · 9th December 2011, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Unless we find evidence of one of these used in the actual Karma Kanda application in Vedic ritual, as we have with examples of the kora, kukri and ram dao in Bengal, Nepal regions, I feel this type weapon is distinctly representative of traditional Indian forms as described.

I agree 100%. My thoughts were merely a speculation

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2011, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

I agree 100%. My thoughts were merely a speculation

Well noted Stan, and I realized that and your observations reflect exactly the kind of thinking which should always be exercised in evaluating these kinds of ethnographic weapons. I always think of it very much in terms of forensics in historical detection on weapons. We're totally on the same page!!!

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2011, 11:30 PM

Just for informations sake, these almost wildly recurved blades are also seen in the Transcaucasian swords known as 'kardok', described by J.Zichy in his "A Magyar Faj Vandor Pa'sa" (Budapest, 1897) . The title may be misspelled but I cannot read the handwriting in the notes from the donor.
These appear with notes on the so called 'Black Sea yataghan' later identified by Ariel as the Laz bichagi, but which for years were termed Kurdish-Armenian yataghans (Triikman/Jacobsen 1941; Seifert 1962).

These unusually recurved swords have been suggested to have come from earlier iconographic sources or traditionally revived forms and seem to have appeared around first half 19th century and to have diminished around the turn of the century. They are recognized with splayed fishtail or horned pommels, and some of the examples carry Caucasian style bifurcated pommel similar to the shashka.

While the same questions arise as to actual combat plausibility of these unusual blades (as noted on the Indian forms by E.Jaiwent Paul) they are clearly not intended as sacrificial or temple swords, but may have carried traditional impetus as ceremonial or court type weapons.

9th December 2011, 07:02 AM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Hi, here is another of the "zulfikar" variation, i once had in my collection. Attached Images

9th December 2011, 01:49 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Guys, the pattern seems to be wider than I thought Perhaps, it is not an anomaly and, based on the sturdiness of the blades, not a parade one as well. Most importantly, the Dhu-l-Faqar samples absolutely negate Hindu sacrificial function.

9th December 2011, 02:37 PM	#3
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	I still think the incurved mid-section of the blade could indicate a sacrifical purpose. It ofcourse could be juts a random feature but to me it looks like something well suited to fit cattle's neck. The blade being sharp is another indication of this theory. Are there any nicks to the edge that could be a result of an actual usage? If so, what part of teh blade is nicked?

9th December 2011, 06:54 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	It is always tempting and often compelling to attempt to explain unusual or even somewhat fanciful designs in ethnographic edged weapons blades, and as described by Christopher Spring in his "African Arms and Armour" the West typically has the need to find such explanations in these unusual ethnographic forms. Much of this phenomenon has of course evolved from the countless 'exotic' weapons brought back from colonial campaigns and international expansion in recent centuries. It seems that many catalog descriptions seen through the years have developed an almost cliche' pattern of assigning terms such as 'executioners' or 'sacrificial' to many weapons with dramatically exaggerated features in the blade size or shape. Examples of this can be seen in the often dramatic and almost fanciful blades on many African edged weapons; in the frightening choppers and arms brought out in volume after the Boxer Rebellion in China; and of course many other instances from many other cultures. Much of the romanticized and flowery descriptions in narratives and literature of Victorian times (which gave us fanciful terms like 'scimitar') also were often the foundation for 'collectors terms' with most of these evolving through transliteration and base misunderstanding by writers and perpetuated by thier readers. In my perception, many ethnographic weapon and particularly blade forms derive from iconographic sources. Many of these are quite ancient and in friezes or sculptures such as described in India, and appear to be in many cases to have profoundly influenced many of these blade forms . These are typically depictive of intense mythological dramas in the heritage of the Hindu Faith, and may be of course considered interpretive in some degree , with these blade forms perhaps illustrated in accord with thier portrayal suitably emphasized in form. In most cases it is considered that these are keenly accurate, however some of the more dramatic blade forms apparantly suggesting use in combat defy understanding of their actual practicality. Many of these forms said to have been used by the Nayar warriors have become the votive forms used in Temple rituals, and produced in accord with these early forms. The forward curves and dramatically shaped blades on these are votive and presumably used processionally, often with jingles and other apotropaic devices or motif added. Unless we find evidence of one of these used in the actual Karma Kanda application in Vedic ritual, as we have with examples of the kora, kukri and ram dao in Bengal, Nepal regions, I feel this type weapon is distinctly representative of traditional Indian forms as described.

11th December 2011, 11:30 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Just for informations sake, these almost wildly recurved blades are also seen in the Transcaucasian swords known as 'kardok', described by J.Zichy in his "A Magyar Faj Vandor Pa'sa" (Budapest, 1897) . The title may be misspelled but I cannot read the handwriting in the notes from the donor. These appear with notes on the so called 'Black Sea yataghan' later identified by Ariel as the Laz bichagi, but which for years were termed Kurdish-Armenian yataghans (Triikman/Jacobsen 1941; Seifert 1962). These unusually recurved swords have been suggested to have come from earlier iconographic sources or traditionally revived forms and seem to have appeared around first half 19th century and to have diminished around the turn of the century. They are recognized with splayed fishtail or horned pommels, and some of the examples carry Caucasian style bifurcated pommel similar to the shashka. While the same questions arise as to actual combat plausibility of these unusual blades (as noted on the Indian forms by E.Jaiwent Paul) they are clearly not intended as sacrificial or temple swords, but may have carried traditional impetus as ceremonial or court type weapons.