Chinese sword: Real or Fake?

fearn · 3rd August 2005, 01:28 PM

Hi Tim,

I've got a knife like that too. It was made in Pakistan. Recently....

There are a couple of important points here (at least to me). One is that fakery is about making money. If there's a good profit margin in people making fakes that are so good that we couldn't tell without sophisticated scientific tests, then they're going to do it.

This is what I call the "profit margin" test. As others have pointed out, this makes sense in cases where the market has gone in for irrational exuberance. With a Tibetan sword, possibly one-of-a-kind?.....

The other, bigger, problem is that we're trying to tell fake from real using a couple of poor-quality digital images. Even if the images are real, they may not show the details we need, and it is certainly easier to manipulate an image than to fake a sword.

The amazing thing is how often we can spot the fakes. Given the quality of the evidence, we're going to miss things occasionally and argue perhaps more often. What's wrong with that?

F

M ELEY · 9th August 2005, 06:23 AM

www.tomahawks.info/id72.htm
www.tomahawks.info/id77.htm

I'm getting worried that the fakers are becoming more skilled than many are giving them credit for. As you can see, its not just fakes from China.

chris · 22nd August 2005, 09:14 AM

hello
I am new to the site.
I colect weapons and particularly those from china, vietnam,...
for a little time
happy china is a strange ebay dealer : 100% of is japanese blades are fake, ther is no doubt about it. he also makes DIY on old original blades. recently his fees have raised to a previously unknown level of price
he also use of anothe ID that I don't remember yet
I have bought several weapons from him, all of chinese origin. one appeared to be a fake. another went through a ridiculous improvement (a hook was added to a real blade). otherwise 8 out of 10 of the sword I bought from him where real one
he know few if any on weapons he sell. I made my "improved" sword restored by a traditional smith specialised in sword near my house and a light etching revealed a laminated pattern ! for 45$, that's an acceptable deal !!!!
well, regarding what I see from that blade, despite the recent "improvement" I would bet one of my sword that the blade is a real one !
(I should add that I went several time in china and went through all shanghai in flee market, hence knowing what chinese are able to do or not)
chris

Lee · 23rd August 2005, 01:28 PM

Oh dear! It looks OK to me.

dennee · 23rd August 2005, 03:04 PM

Here's a report from Lhasa, since I have been there the past week. The Chinese are getting pretty darn good at faking Tibetan helmets (many are obvious fakes, but they are getting the techniques right), but I have seen no swords that are the least convincing in decoration, let alone blade lamination (although I have had the opportunity to examine several in museums and monasteries--and most of those have lost the ring on the back of the pommel, suggesting that such a fragile looking part is not necessarily inauthentic ). I wouldn't trust armor or spears much, although I saw no spears that reproduced the partucular Tibetan style of head.

I saw one reproduction sword in the Tibetan Museum gift shop that made no attempt to pass itself off as the real thing, although it tried to convey the spirit. With a simple round guard and a scabbard covered in tan leather, the sword had the right weight, form and balance. The lamination was represented by creating an oxidized pattern around some sort of resist. The oixidized areas appeared to be iron oxide, although the particle appeared small and uniform in size and color (something like paprika, frankly)--and it was selling for 3000 yuan, more than I have bought most of my real ones for.

The absolute scarcity of reproduction laminated blades where you might most expect to see them--and compared with the number of knives and helmets suggests to me that no one (or almost no one) is producing them. If anyone is prodcing good copies, then $200 might be a reasonable price.

Of course, for the purpose of an eBay auction photo, the effect of the lamination, at least as seen in a raking light, could be produced in a number of ways.

I wouldn't worry about the red fabric around the throat, because it could be replacing a piece of leather that was easily lost. To get such a detail wrong when everything else looks right seems illogical. If someone had an original sword to copy, it wouldn't make sense to not copy the leather band. And, if the original no longer had a leather band, then the copyist would presumably have omitted the detail. This suggests simply an inauthentic replacement of an riginal piece.

3rd August 2005, 01:28 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, I've got a knife like that too. It was made in Pakistan. Recently.... There are a couple of important points here (at least to me). One is that fakery is about making money. If there's a good profit margin in people making fakes that are so good that we couldn't tell without sophisticated scientific tests, then they're going to do it. This is what I call the "profit margin" test. As others have pointed out, this makes sense in cases where the market has gone in for irrational exuberance. With a Tibetan sword, possibly one-of-a-kind?..... The other, bigger, problem is that we're trying to tell fake from real using a couple of poor-quality digital images. Even if the images are real, they may not show the details we need, and it is certainly easier to manipulate an image than to fake a sword. The amazing thing is how often we can spot the fakes. Given the quality of the evidence, we're going to miss things occasionally and argue perhaps more often. What's wrong with that? F

9th August 2005, 06:23 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,156	www.tomahawks.info/id72.htm www.tomahawks.info/id77.htm I'm getting worried that the fakers are becoming more skilled than many are giving them credit for. As you can see, its not just fakes from China.

22nd August 2005, 09:14 AM	#3
chris Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: france Posts: 2	hello I am new to the site. I colect weapons and particularly those from china, vietnam,... for a little time happy china is a strange ebay dealer : 100% of is japanese blades are fake, ther is no doubt about it. he also makes DIY on old original blades. recently his fees have raised to a previously unknown level of price he also use of anothe ID that I don't remember yet I have bought several weapons from him, all of chinese origin. one appeared to be a fake. another went through a ridiculous improvement (a hook was added to a real blade). otherwise 8 out of 10 of the sword I bought from him where real one he know few if any on weapons he sell. I made my "improved" sword restored by a traditional smith specialised in sword near my house and a light etching revealed a laminated pattern ! for 45$, that's an acceptable deal !!!! well, regarding what I see from that blade, despite the recent "improvement" I would bet one of my sword that the blade is a real one ! (I should add that I went several time in china and went through all shanghai in flee market, hence knowing what chinese are able to do or not) chris

23rd August 2005, 01:28 PM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	Oh dear! It looks OK to me.

23rd August 2005, 03:04 PM	#5
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Here's a report from Lhasa, since I have been there the past week. The Chinese are getting pretty darn good at faking Tibetan helmets (many are obvious fakes, but they are getting the techniques right), but I have seen no swords that are the least convincing in decoration, let alone blade lamination (although I have had the opportunity to examine several in museums and monasteries--and most of those have lost the ring on the back of the pommel, suggesting that such a fragile looking part is not necessarily inauthentic ). I wouldn't trust armor or spears much, although I saw no spears that reproduced the partucular Tibetan style of head. I saw one reproduction sword in the Tibetan Museum gift shop that made no attempt to pass itself off as the real thing, although it tried to convey the spirit. With a simple round guard and a scabbard covered in tan leather, the sword had the right weight, form and balance. The lamination was represented by creating an oxidized pattern around some sort of resist. The oixidized areas appeared to be iron oxide, although the particle appeared small and uniform in size and color (something like paprika, frankly)--and it was selling for 3000 yuan, more than I have bought most of my real ones for. The absolute scarcity of reproduction laminated blades where you might most expect to see them--and compared with the number of knives and helmets suggests to me that no one (or almost no one) is producing them. If anyone is prodcing good copies, then $200 might be a reasonable price. Of course, for the purpose of an eBay auction photo, the effect of the lamination, at least as seen in a raking light, could be produced in a number of ways. I wouldn't worry about the red fabric around the throat, because it could be replacing a piece of leather that was easily lost. To get such a detail wrong when everything else looks right seems illogical. If someone had an original sword to copy, it wouldn't make sense to not copy the leather band. And, if the original no longer had a leather band, then the copyist would presumably have omitted the detail. This suggests simply an inauthentic replacement of an riginal piece.