More Signs of India - Rome Trade

Queequeg · 24th October 2011, 08:28 PM

I ran across this while browsing news sites today and thought that people here might be interested.

(from News Network Archaeology)
More on Chennai's links to ancient Rome found

Quote:

The discovery of Roman pottery remains in Naduvirapattu, near Tambaram, last week has once again thrown light on the extensive trade between southern India and Rome more than 2,000 years ago. The latest findings seem to indicate that the Roman traders travelled inland and may have had temporary settlements there...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th November 2011, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Queequeg

I ran across this while browsing news sites today and thought that people here might be interested.

(from News Network Archaeology)
More on Chennai's links to ancient Rome found

Salaams Queequeg,
An outstanding reference.. shukran. The Romans were in Yemen after Frankincense and there is a story about a lost Legion but I had no idea they were in India. Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jens Nordlunde · 8th November 2011, 05:46 PM

It is interesting indeed, but there are many things not much known, which are interesting.

In the very early centuries, maybe even before BC, the Indians had big vessels, with which they sailed east and colonized part of Vietnam, and quite a number of other places, but they also sailed west, and had contact with Africa, where they got ivory and slaves. They also had contact with the Arabian Peninsula, Egypt and Italy. These big vessels seem to have stopped about the time the Europeans got to India.

It is however known, that the Indians also exported tons of wootz ingots, and one of the Greek philosophers, maybe Plinius, said, ‘there is no need, when cutting meat, to use a knife of Indian steel’.

When it comes to the compass the Indians are known to have had a hollow fish of magnetic steel swimming on oil, which they used for a compass.

Jim McDougall · 8th November 2011, 10:52 PM

Well pointed out by Jens, there is relatively little commonly brought into trade discussions about the important Indian merchant vessels.
Concerning ancient trade networks, it seems quite long established that trade between China, India and Rome and Greece were well known. As far as actual Roman trade colonies in India, it does seem that most scholars and in archeological literature generally accept that locations such as Arikamedu on the SE coast of India near Pondicherry were likely established locations to receive Roman goods.
It would seem that actually the many amphorae of Roman provenance and found in numerous regions were such 'received' goods and evidence of the use of these materials rather than actual Roman colonization. Actually from a number of archaeological reports, a good number of these have been found to be Mesopotamian, despite of course many indisputably Roman.
The discoveries of at least 10,000 Roman coins throughout the subcontinent, probably considerably more, is evidence of these used as a medium of exchange and of course for thier intrinsic value rather than presence of contingents of Romans.

The evidence of 'trade' cannot be disputed but not misconstrued as the presence of Roman colonies. The coinage and amphorae represent materials and exchange of the triangular trade of India, Persian Gulf and Roman Egypt and Red Sea ports. The ports of Myos, Hormes and Berenice were key ports in Egypt which were hubs in the trade networks, and as most commonly seen, exchanges in hubs were points of contact in these vast networks rather than traders enduring circumnavigational travels...it was relay and networking.
In these exchanges not only goods, but cultural influences, religions and all manner of humanities were included as well as tales of faraway places and peoples. The fabled exploits of Marco Polo have of course been contested and may be the result of second hand information, much in the same way.

As we study the history and development of weapons, knowing more on these trade circumstances is key in our understanding of thier diffusion.
As moved the goods, so moved the weapons as commodities as well.

Queequeg, thank you for sharing this item and for bringing up such a valid and important topic.

Gavin Nugent · 10th November 2011, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

It is interesting indeed, but there are many things not much known, which are interesting.

In the very early centuries, maybe even before BC, the Indians had big vessels, with which they sailed east and colonized part of Vietnam, and quite a number of other places, but they also sailed west, and had contact with Africa, where they got ivory and slaves. They also had contact with the Arabian Peninsula, Egypt and Italy. These big vessels seem to have stopped about the time the Europeans got to India.

It is however known, that the Indians also exported tons of wootz ingots, and one of the Greek philosophers, maybe Plinius, said, ‘there is no need, when cutting meat, to use a knife of Indian steel’.

When it comes to the compass the Indians are known to have had a hollow fish of magnetic steel swimming on oil, which they used for a compass.

I stumbled across this passage this evening;

In the 5th century BC, the Greek historian Herodotus observed that "Indian and the Persian army used arrows tipped with iron."[46] Ancient Romans used armour and cutlery made of Indian iron. Pliny the Elder also mentioned Indian iron.[47] Muhammad al-Idrisi wrote the Hindus excelled in the manufacture of iron, and that it would be impossible to find anything to surpass the edge from Hindwani steel.[48] Quintus Curtius wrote about an Indian present of steel to Alexander.[49] Ferrum indicum appeared in the list of articles subject to duty under Marcus Aurelius and Commodus.[50] Indian Wootz steel was held in high regard in Europe, and Indian iron was often considered to be the best.[51]

8th November 2011, 05:46 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	It is interesting indeed, but there are many things not much known, which are interesting. In the very early centuries, maybe even before BC, the Indians had big vessels, with which they sailed east and colonized part of Vietnam, and quite a number of other places, but they also sailed west, and had contact with Africa, where they got ivory and slaves. They also had contact with the Arabian Peninsula, Egypt and Italy. These big vessels seem to have stopped about the time the Europeans got to India. It is however known, that the Indians also exported tons of wootz ingots, and one of the Greek philosophers, maybe Plinius, said, ‘there is no need, when cutting meat, to use a knife of Indian steel’. When it comes to the compass the Indians are known to have had a hollow fish of magnetic steel swimming on oil, which they used for a compass. Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 8th November 2011 at 06:08 PM.

8th November 2011, 10:52 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Well pointed out by Jens, there is relatively little commonly brought into trade discussions about the important Indian merchant vessels. Concerning ancient trade networks, it seems quite long established that trade between China, India and Rome and Greece were well known. As far as actual Roman trade colonies in India, it does seem that most scholars and in archeological literature generally accept that locations such as Arikamedu on the SE coast of India near Pondicherry were likely established locations to receive Roman goods. It would seem that actually the many amphorae of Roman provenance and found in numerous regions were such 'received' goods and evidence of the use of these materials rather than actual Roman colonization. Actually from a number of archaeological reports, a good number of these have been found to be Mesopotamian, despite of course many indisputably Roman. The discoveries of at least 10,000 Roman coins throughout the subcontinent, probably considerably more, is evidence of these used as a medium of exchange and of course for thier intrinsic value rather than presence of contingents of Romans. The evidence of 'trade' cannot be disputed but not misconstrued as the presence of Roman colonies. The coinage and amphorae represent materials and exchange of the triangular trade of India, Persian Gulf and Roman Egypt and Red Sea ports. The ports of Myos, Hormes and Berenice were key ports in Egypt which were hubs in the trade networks, and as most commonly seen, exchanges in hubs were points of contact in these vast networks rather than traders enduring circumnavigational travels...it was relay and networking. In these exchanges not only goods, but cultural influences, religions and all manner of humanities were included as well as tales of faraway places and peoples. The fabled exploits of Marco Polo have of course been contested and may be the result of second hand information, much in the same way. As we study the history and development of weapons, knowing more on these trade circumstances is key in our understanding of thier diffusion. As moved the goods, so moved the weapons as commodities as well. Queequeg, thank you for sharing this item and for bringing up such a valid and important topic.