Would like to know your opinion about this carita blade

Sajen · 30th October 2011, 06:59 PM

Hello,

I would like to read your opinion about this carita keris.

Regards,

Detlef

Tok Janggut · 31st October 2011, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello,

I would like to read your opinion about this carita keris.

Regards,

Detlef

this is not carita keris but seems like pandai saras to me..

Alam Shah · 1st November 2011, 05:18 PM

I do agree it's a Pandai Saras blade form. A Northern Malay Peninsular keris. Beautiful blade. Love the slight curve. Congrats.. What's the length of the blade?

Sajen · 2nd November 2011, 09:32 PM

Thank you both! My mistake, sorry. Normally I should know that's a pandai saras keris.

Blade is 35 cm long without pesi.

Regards,

Detlef

PenangsangII · 3rd November 2011, 04:03 AM

Congrats Sajen for an exquisite pandai saras of Gajah Tikor profile. Highly sought after in Malaysia. Let me know if you get tired with it....

Sajen · 3rd November 2011, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Congrats Sajen for an exquisite pandai saras of Gajah Tikor profile. Highly sought after in Malaysia. Let me know if you get tired with it....

Thank you Penangsang!

Please can you explain "Tikor"? "Gajah" means elephant, correct? And which sarung is correct for this blade? And, sorry, I don't think that I will get soon tired with it!

Regards,

Detlef

PenangsangII · 4th November 2011, 11:12 AM

Hi Sajen,

Gajah means elephant
Tikor means big or great

gajah tikor is a keris terminology in Pattani and Northern Peninsula describing a keris lurus with curvy profile such as yours. Gajah Tikor is to describe the matured elephant tusk like profile - big and curvy

A. G. Maisey · 4th November 2011, 12:36 PM

Penangsang, can you tell us what language the word "tikor" is from?

Thanks.

David · 4th November 2011, 03:51 PM

I can find reference to Gajah Tikor in The Malay Keris by Wooley in the Glossary of Keris Terms as follows and attributed to Skeat:
Gajah Tikor (? Likor): a keris with one wave di-pangkal (Skeat)

A. G. Maisey · 4th November 2011, 10:19 PM

Thank you David.

Yes, Woolley lists the term,and I take Skeat to be an unimpeachable source, but I cannot find the word "tikor" as Malay word. Further, the Woolley entry does not make sense to me for a number of reasons that I will not go into here.

The word "tikor" is found in a number of on-line dictionaries with the meaning of "east indian arrowroot plant", as well as some other irrelevant meanings.

The use of names of plants and flowers is quite common in keris terminology, and the area where this keris comes from is part of the East Indies. I suspect that the original use of the term as associated with keris had this relationship, but by Skeat's time it had acquired another meaning, by our time, another meaning again.

These are possibilities, but there is another possibility, and that is that confusion surrounds the term, so that perhaps it means different things to different people; this is not at all uncommon in matters to do with keris.

Whenever I find a term associated with keris, that I have not previously encountered, I try to find out what it means, and where it comes from.

If there is an Old Javanese association, consideration can be given to associating the keris itself to the time when that language was in use.

If the association points to Modern Javanese, or to Indonesian, or to Malay, or to some other language, that can assist with identification of origin in both time and place, and in the case of Bahasa Indonesia, with authenticity, for example, if we find an Indonesian term applied to a Javanese or Balinese keris, we need to question just how accurate that term is.

Language can act as a signpost. Sometimes the signpost might get twisted and you finish up nowhere, but it is always worth investigation.

ganjawulung · 5th November 2011, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Language can act as a signpost. Sometimes the signpost might get twisted and you finish up nowhere, but it is always worth investigation.

Yes, I fully agree with this interesting statement. But if we look to Malay keris, I found some keris term doesn't indicate as a signpost. Like, "carita" keris, in Malay term for instance. Why "carita"? Is there any meaning of "carita" in Malay term? Or it was originated from "carita" in Javanese term? And why it is a straight keris, and not wavy?
Also the form of "carita" itself, I found it different if we talk on javanese kerises for instance. There are so many "carita" variations in forms of kerises in Java. I mean, keris which bears 'dhapur' (model) of carita. If we talk on "carita" only, then we may point to certain dhapurs which has 11 luks with details of one kembang kacang, one jalen, one lambe gajah, one pejetan, one tikel alis, front sogokan and rear sogokan, with sraweyan and greneng...
And more "carita" dhapurs with 11 luks, which has different details such as carita bungkem, carita daleman, carita gandhu, carita genengan, carita keprabon (one of the most popular carita style in Java, many found in noble-man kerises in Yogyakarta), carita prasaja -- all with wavy style of 11 luks. And also "caritas" in 15 luks carita buntala, 17 luks carita kalentang....
But no form of carita kerises in Java which bears straight form. So, my eternal question is why, the Pandai Saras form of carita is a straight form of keris, with ada-ada in the middle of the blade, straight form but a bit curvy, and with "greneng" (I am sorry, not in Malay term). Would you like to explains why? Or it was, or it is just a "carita" name without any explanation?

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 5th November 2011, 06:36 AM

I can't explain any of this, Jimmy, but when I see "carita" used as a name for a distinctly Malay form of keris it suggests to me that keris (in general) came into the Malay world during the period that Old Javanese was used in Jawa. This then becomes an endorsement of the period for spread of the keris through S. E. Asia.

Why?

Because "carita" is an Old Javanese word that means, a deed, or an action, or an experience ( perbuatan, tindakan, pengalaman) , and this understanding also assists with an understanding of the original naming of the carita form in Jawa, as to my mind, the Old Javanese meaning of "carita" does make a more understandable name for a keris form than does the Modern Javanese meaning of "carita" :- a story about something. By looking at the original meaning, which comes from the Sanscrit, we can understand how the word meaning a deed, or action, or experience became the word for a story about this deed, or action or experience.

I tend not to think about the keris in a way that would be easily understood by any keris collector, be that collector Javanese or from somewhere else. I tend to look for origins, rather than classifications. I tend not to seek a name for some particular form or pattern, but to question why the name. If I look at a pamor I am usually not much interested in the name, rather I ask how it was made.

So, in the Javanese keris lexicon we have all these different forms of carita keris, and they're all waved. In the Malay keris lexicon we have carita keris too, and they're straight. To me, this is not anything to cause wonder. As I said in my prior post:- sometimes the sign post gets twisted. Doesn't matter much, the fact of the difference can perhaps tell us as much as if there were to be agreement. To my way of thinking, the important thing is to think about these things and ask why --- and it seems that that is what you are doing Jimmy:- asking the question "why?"

Looking at the list of carita dhapurs, I feel an interesting exercise would be to analyse all these names in terms of Old Javanese and Modern Javanese. Hours of fun for somebody.

Sajen · 6th November 2011, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Yes, I fully agree with this interesting statement. But if we look to Malay keris, I found some keris term doesn't indicate as a signpost. Like, "carita" keris, in Malay term for instance. Why "carita"? Is there any meaning of "carita" in Malay term? Or it was originated from "carita" in Javanese term? And why it is a straight keris, and not wavy?
GANJAWULUNG

Interesting question I asked myself before. Maybe one of our Malay members can enlighten us?

Sajen · 6th November 2011, 05:43 PM

This is the sheath coming with the keris, the fit is very good and it is for sure a Malay sheat. But is it correct? There is an older repair at the bottom from the batang. Would this be an original ensemble? And which hilt I have to look for?

Detlef

David · 6th November 2011, 06:14 PM

Detlef, i couldn't tell you if the sheath is correct, but it looks like a beautiful chatoyant wood. I will say though that the pendokok is obviously not appropriate for the hilt.

Sajen · 6th November 2011, 07:34 PM

Hi David,

thank you for comment!

Yes, the hilt is wrong for the ensemble. It is an old wooden Coteng hilt coated with a thick layer of shellac or a other varnish.

Regards,

Detlef

PenangsangII · 8th November 2011, 01:09 AM

gajah tikor is a terminology of the Malays in Northern Peninsula (kelantan and pattani). Its a local Malay dialect, and I do not believe its included in the Malay dictionaries. As we all know, Malay tradition does not keeps records in writing, whether its a prasasti, lontara or even a book. Oral tradition passed down thru generations may result in the corruption of words and meaning. But its understood within the keris community from this part of the world, ''gajah tikor'' refers to the profile of matured tusk of a male elephant that has a curvy look. The Malays also call this type of keris as ''luk satu'' as the curve is refer to as a luk.

30th October 2011, 06:59 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Would like to know your opinion about this carita blade Hello, I would like to read your opinion about this carita keris. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

6th November 2011, 05:43 PM	#14
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	This is the sheath coming with the keris, the fit is very good and it is for sure a Malay sheat. But is it correct? There is an older repair at the bottom from the batang. Would this be an original ensemble? And which hilt I have to look for? Detlef Attached Images

6th November 2011, 07:34 PM	#16
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Hi David, thank you for comment! Yes, the hilt is wrong for the ensemble. It is an old wooden Coteng hilt coated with a thick layer of shellac or a other varnish. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

8th November 2011, 01:09 AM	#17
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	gajah tikor gajah tikor is a terminology of the Malays in Northern Peninsula (kelantan and pattani). Its a local Malay dialect, and I do not believe its included in the Malay dictionaries. As we all know, Malay tradition does not keeps records in writing, whether its a prasasti, lontara or even a book. Oral tradition passed down thru generations may result in the corruption of words and meaning. But its understood within the keris community from this part of the world, ''gajah tikor'' refers to the profile of matured tusk of a male elephant that has a curvy look. The Malays also call this type of keris as ''luk satu'' as the curve is refer to as a luk.

1st November 2011, 05:18 PM	#3
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	I do agree it's a Pandai Saras blade form. A Northern Malay Peninsular keris. Beautiful blade. Love the slight curve. Congrats.. What's the length of the blade?

2nd November 2011, 09:32 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Thank you both! My mistake, sorry. Normally I should know that's a pandai saras keris. Blade is 35 cm long without pesi. Regards, Detlef

3rd November 2011, 04:03 AM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Congrats Sajen for an exquisite pandai saras of Gajah Tikor profile. Highly sought after in Malaysia. Let me know if you get tired with it....

4th November 2011, 11:12 AM	#7
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Hi Sajen, Gajah means elephant Tikor means big or great gajah tikor is a keris terminology in Pattani and Northern Peninsula describing a keris lurus with curvy profile such as yours. Gajah Tikor is to describe the matured elephant tusk like profile - big and curvy

4th November 2011, 12:36 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	Penangsang, can you tell us what language the word "tikor" is from? Thanks.

4th November 2011, 03:51 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	I can find reference to Gajah Tikor in The Malay Keris by Wooley in the Glossary of Keris Terms as follows and attributed to Skeat: Gajah Tikor (? Likor): a keris with one wave di-pangkal (Skeat)

4th November 2011, 10:19 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	Thank you David. Yes, Woolley lists the term,and I take Skeat to be an unimpeachable source, but I cannot find the word "tikor" as Malay word. Further, the Woolley entry does not make sense to me for a number of reasons that I will not go into here. The word "tikor" is found in a number of on-line dictionaries with the meaning of "east indian arrowroot plant", as well as some other irrelevant meanings. The use of names of plants and flowers is quite common in keris terminology, and the area where this keris comes from is part of the East Indies. I suspect that the original use of the term as associated with keris had this relationship, but by Skeat's time it had acquired another meaning, by our time, another meaning again. These are possibilities, but there is another possibility, and that is that confusion surrounds the term, so that perhaps it means different things to different people; this is not at all uncommon in matters to do with keris. Whenever I find a term associated with keris, that I have not previously encountered, I try to find out what it means, and where it comes from. If there is an Old Javanese association, consideration can be given to associating the keris itself to the time when that language was in use. If the association points to Modern Javanese, or to Indonesian, or to Malay, or to some other language, that can assist with identification of origin in both time and place, and in the case of Bahasa Indonesia, with authenticity, for example, if we find an Indonesian term applied to a Javanese or Balinese keris, we need to question just how accurate that term is. Language can act as a signpost. Sometimes the signpost might get twisted and you finish up nowhere, but it is always worth investigation.

5th November 2011, 06:36 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	I can't explain any of this, Jimmy, but when I see "carita" used as a name for a distinctly Malay form of keris it suggests to me that keris (in general) came into the Malay world during the period that Old Javanese was used in Jawa. This then becomes an endorsement of the period for spread of the keris through S. E. Asia. Why? Because "carita" is an Old Javanese word that means, a deed, or an action, or an experience ( perbuatan, tindakan, pengalaman) , and this understanding also assists with an understanding of the original naming of the carita form in Jawa, as to my mind, the Old Javanese meaning of "carita" does make a more understandable name for a keris form than does the Modern Javanese meaning of "carita" :- a story about something. By looking at the original meaning, which comes from the Sanscrit, we can understand how the word meaning a deed, or action, or experience became the word for a story about this deed, or action or experience. I tend not to think about the keris in a way that would be easily understood by any keris collector, be that collector Javanese or from somewhere else. I tend to look for origins, rather than classifications. I tend not to seek a name for some particular form or pattern, but to question why the name. If I look at a pamor I am usually not much interested in the name, rather I ask how it was made. So, in the Javanese keris lexicon we have all these different forms of carita keris, and they're all waved. In the Malay keris lexicon we have carita keris too, and they're straight. To me, this is not anything to cause wonder. As I said in my prior post:- sometimes the sign post gets twisted. Doesn't matter much, the fact of the difference can perhaps tell us as much as if there were to be agreement. To my way of thinking, the important thing is to think about these things and ask why --- and it seems that that is what you are doing Jimmy:- asking the question "why?" Looking at the list of carita dhapurs, I feel an interesting exercise would be to analyse all these names in terms of Old Javanese and Modern Javanese. Hours of fun for somebody.

6th November 2011, 06:14 PM	#15
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	Detlef, i couldn't tell you if the sheath is correct, but it looks like a beautiful chatoyant wood. I will say though that the pendokok is obviously not appropriate for the hilt.