Sombro Or Jaka Sura?

ganjawulung · 9th October 2011, 12:11 AM

Thank you, for the response, Mr Maisey,

And thank you too, that you always mention that I am very well placed in Jakarta, although more than 20 years -- from my childhoold -- I was grown up in Solo as a javanese. And even both, my late parents were born and grown up in Solo as Javanese family. We "lived in the tradition" of keris, as did wayang and gamelan music too. At least, I knew that my father owned keris, since my childhood. And Jakarta where I live is still in Jawa, and only less than 12 hours by car to Solo, or 55 minutes by plane. Keris circle in Jakarta, and Solo or Yogya are not too far to work together, or to communicate in this "Steve Jobs" era. We still organize keris exhibition together. But I think the "sombro case" is not the case of whether I am Jakartanese, or Solonese. Or even Australian, as you. I apologize if I can not say in the right English word, on this case, as usual...

If I can say, that keris with certain characteristics of blade is usually called as "keris sedayu" is a type of keris, then I must say I was wrong to tell, that "sombro keris" is not the name of keris type. Concerning, that the name "sedayu" derived also from the name of empu, Pangeran Sedayu or Ki Jaka Supa as the case of "sombro keris". And not derived from location, Sedayu in Yogyakarta or other place. Pangeran Sedayu was also known as the son of Majapahit empu, Supamandrangi. But what I want to say in my response to Karttikeya, is mainly the type of his keris in the picture. The type of keris of his, in the image, is Puthut. Or keris which bears dhapur, Puthut...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 9th October 2011, 01:28 AM

Pak Ganja, you can call me Alan.

If it helps, I'll address you as Jimmy, but I really do not feel comfortable with the "Mr." appellation from a man of your seniority.

Permit me to clarify:- you are not under attack.

As I have never met you, it may seem strange to you, but I am well aware of your background.

I mentioned Jakarta because it is in Jakarta you have your place in the world of the keris. At least, that is my understanding gained from those with whom I associate in Solo. You are undoubtedly a part of the Jakarta coterie.

Again, although Jakarta is geographically placed in the Island of Jawa, I feel that many people living in Solo would not agree that it is a part of the Land of Jawa --- but perhaps their views, as is my own, are somewhat dated.

Upon reflection, you may perhaps agree that the language, culture, world-view and attitude from a Jakarta-centric position is just a little different from the Surakarta-centric position.

I repeat:- you are not under attack; the comment in my previous post was simply an observance of the way in which perspectives change in accordance with the passing of time and emergence of new needs. I have been observing the changing nature of the keris world in Jawa --- and I guess in Indonesia --- now for around 40 years, and I really do find the changes as fascinating as the subject itself.

You owe nobody any apologies for your English, as usual it far more than adequate.

ganjawulung · 9th October 2011, 03:16 AM

Ok Alan, thank you for the clarification. Yes, we have never met. But a few years back, I've asked someone whom you visited couple of times (Mr Yantono, he has a besalen, and I still have a house of my parents less than 200 meters away from him in Palur, empty house though. My parents were not used to stay there, but in Mangkubumen, in Jalan Yasadipura. I used to spend my childhood in my grandmother's house too in Kusumayudan...), once I asked Yantono to say to you that I want to meet you (I know you regularly visited him). Yantono said, you don't want to meet and talk with me if related to keris matter.....

Anyway, Solo was part of my childhood, and also still have big family there. And of course, still have "keris family", keris friends like young "empu" or you may say "keris makers" such as KRT Subandi Supaningrat (given formal name by the kraton Surakarta), Sukamdi, Yanto, Yantono and of course the respected Pak Pus or empu Pauzan Puspasukadgo you know him well. I don't even feel, that I am Jakartanese for the last couple of years. Because I am still "living javanese", talking javanese, watching javanese wayang at Taman Mini, or other occasion, and gathering with keris friends there...

A. G. Maisey · 9th October 2011, 04:23 AM

Two things here Jimmy.

The failed meeting of several years ago, and your inheritance.

I do understand your antecedents. I know where you came from, and it is undeniable that by birth and upbringing you are Javanese. However, it is equally undeniable that you are now a citizen of the world, that you live in an international environment and that you are a part of the Jakarta keris coterie.

There is no necessity for you to list the people whom you know. You are well placed in the world of the keris, and none of this is in question. Forgive me if I misinterpret your writings, but it seems to me that you are adopting an overly defensive attitude, when in fact there is nothing happening here that requires any sort of defence.

Now, about the business of you wishing to meet with me a few years back.

Jimmy, I'm 70 years old. When somebody wishes to meet with me they usually make an appointment and I make myself available to that person for an agreed period of time, for discussion or interview within agreed parameters. Forgive me if my attitude seems a trifle too formal, but that is the way I work:- I will give everything I have, within agreed parameters; I will give nothing where parameters and timing are not agreed.

Then there is the fact that you are by profession a journalist.

I have had very considerable experience with journalists, both in Australia and in Indonesia, and that experience stretches back over a 50 year period of time.

Quite simply, what one may say to any journalist cannot be guaranteed to kept as private conversation, and is never subject to one's own edit, correction and approval. The journalist takes what passes between himself and the person interviewed and manipulates that as if it were raw material to be used to create the highest level of interest, amusement, indignation, or whatever is demanded of him by the current situation or his editor.

This even happens in live TV interviews.

The end result can be extremely unfortunate for the person who has been interviewed.

Bear this in mind:- I am the only person from a western culture to ever have been trained by a Javanese karaton empu. Every time I open my mouth on the subject of keris in Jawa, it is not only I who is being weighed and judged, it is my teacher. Because of this I tend to say very little about keris when I am in Jawa. I may have been trained by Empu Suparman, but my own very considerable research has resulted in findings and theories that are very, very divergent from my teacher's position, and from the position of every other person I know who has committed seriously to the study of the keris --- with the possible exception of one very well known world authority.

Even though I have very deep family roots in Jawa, it is undeniable that I am an Australian, and the product of a culture based in European culture and society. It is inevitable that in any interview conducted across a divide of language, society and culture that the result of that interview will be less than an accurate reflection of all that transpired.

Add editorial requirement to less than accurate raw material, and we have something that I quite simply am not prepared to become involved in. I have no wish for, nor need of any sort of elevation of my public profile:- in short, there is nothing in a published interview that is to my benefit.

I returned from a couple of months in Solo only a week ago, and I would have been pleased to meet with you whilst I was there. However, the meeting would have been at an agreed time and place, and the conversation would have been on a personal level, not for publication. I would not have been prepared to discuss keris with you, but I would have been more than prepared to discuss almost anything else, provided it did not become raw material for publication.

ganjawulung · 9th October 2011, 05:01 AM

No more comments from me, Alan. I think all is too clear... We can meet here, at any time, any topic....

Thanks a lot,
GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 9th October 2011, 05:28 AM

OK Jimmy.

I should be back some time in the first half of 2013. The visit I have just made was not planned and has cleaned me out. If you care to diarise me for follow up in January 2013 we can take it from there.

Karttikeya · 15th October 2011, 04:28 AM

Sorry for late reply, I would like to say thank to both Pak Ganjawulung and Pak Alan for your such explanations. Both of you are keris connoisseurs, Pak Ganjawulung, there's no doubt that you are experienced in keris, that's shown that you are the one of selected panels in Lomba Estetika Keris last time in Yogya (correct me if I am wrong). And Pak Alan, no one who does not know you as keris expert with deep and rational analysis and highly experienced absolutely.

Back to this keris, some people say this keris seems like Sombro characateristics however other people say this keris was made in Majapahit period. My question is it quite rare keris type? How its authenticity?

9th October 2011, 12:11 AM	#1
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Thank you, for the response, Mr Maisey, And thank you too, that you always mention that I am very well placed in Jakarta, although more than 20 years -- from my childhoold -- I was grown up in Solo as a javanese. And even both, my late parents were born and grown up in Solo as Javanese family. We "lived in the tradition" of keris, as did wayang and gamelan music too. At least, I knew that my father owned keris, since my childhood. And Jakarta where I live is still in Jawa, and only less than 12 hours by car to Solo, or 55 minutes by plane. Keris circle in Jakarta, and Solo or Yogya are not too far to work together, or to communicate in this "Steve Jobs" era. We still organize keris exhibition together. But I think the "sombro case" is not the case of whether I am Jakartanese, or Solonese. Or even Australian, as you. I apologize if I can not say in the right English word, on this case, as usual... If I can say, that keris with certain characteristics of blade is usually called as "keris sedayu" is a type of keris, then I must say I was wrong to tell, that "sombro keris" is not the name of keris type. Concerning, that the name "sedayu" derived also from the name of empu, Pangeran Sedayu or Ki Jaka Supa as the case of "sombro keris". And not derived from location, Sedayu in Yogyakarta or other place. Pangeran Sedayu was also known as the son of Majapahit empu, Supamandrangi. But what I want to say in my response to Karttikeya, is mainly the type of his keris in the picture. The type of keris of his, in the image, is Puthut. Or keris which bears dhapur, Puthut... GANJAWULUNG

9th October 2011, 01:28 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Pak Ganja, you can call me Alan. If it helps, I'll address you as Jimmy, but I really do not feel comfortable with the "Mr." appellation from a man of your seniority. Permit me to clarify:- you are not under attack. As I have never met you, it may seem strange to you, but I am well aware of your background. I mentioned Jakarta because it is in Jakarta you have your place in the world of the keris. At least, that is my understanding gained from those with whom I associate in Solo. You are undoubtedly a part of the Jakarta coterie. Again, although Jakarta is geographically placed in the Island of Jawa, I feel that many people living in Solo would not agree that it is a part of the Land of Jawa --- but perhaps their views, as is my own, are somewhat dated. Upon reflection, you may perhaps agree that the language, culture, world-view and attitude from a Jakarta-centric position is just a little different from the Surakarta-centric position. I repeat:- you are not under attack; the comment in my previous post was simply an observance of the way in which perspectives change in accordance with the passing of time and emergence of new needs. I have been observing the changing nature of the keris world in Jawa --- and I guess in Indonesia --- now for around 40 years, and I really do find the changes as fascinating as the subject itself. You owe nobody any apologies for your English, as usual it far more than adequate.

9th October 2011, 03:16 AM	#3
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Ok Alan, thank you for the clarification. Yes, we have never met. But a few years back, I've asked someone whom you visited couple of times (Mr Yantono, he has a besalen, and I still have a house of my parents less than 200 meters away from him in Palur, empty house though. My parents were not used to stay there, but in Mangkubumen, in Jalan Yasadipura. I used to spend my childhood in my grandmother's house too in Kusumayudan...), once I asked Yantono to say to you that I want to meet you (I know you regularly visited him). Yantono said, you don't want to meet and talk with me if related to keris matter..... Anyway, Solo was part of my childhood, and also still have big family there. And of course, still have "keris family", keris friends like young "empu" or you may say "keris makers" such as KRT Subandi Supaningrat (given formal name by the kraton Surakarta), Sukamdi, Yanto, Yantono and of course the respected Pak Pus or empu Pauzan Puspasukadgo you know him well. I don't even feel, that I am Jakartanese for the last couple of years. Because I am still "living javanese", talking javanese, watching javanese wayang at Taman Mini, or other occasion, and gathering with keris friends there...

9th October 2011, 04:23 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Two things here Jimmy. The failed meeting of several years ago, and your inheritance. I do understand your antecedents. I know where you came from, and it is undeniable that by birth and upbringing you are Javanese. However, it is equally undeniable that you are now a citizen of the world, that you live in an international environment and that you are a part of the Jakarta keris coterie. There is no necessity for you to list the people whom you know. You are well placed in the world of the keris, and none of this is in question. Forgive me if I misinterpret your writings, but it seems to me that you are adopting an overly defensive attitude, when in fact there is nothing happening here that requires any sort of defence. Now, about the business of you wishing to meet with me a few years back. Jimmy, I'm 70 years old. When somebody wishes to meet with me they usually make an appointment and I make myself available to that person for an agreed period of time, for discussion or interview within agreed parameters. Forgive me if my attitude seems a trifle too formal, but that is the way I work:- I will give everything I have, within agreed parameters; I will give nothing where parameters and timing are not agreed. Then there is the fact that you are by profession a journalist. I have had very considerable experience with journalists, both in Australia and in Indonesia, and that experience stretches back over a 50 year period of time. Quite simply, what one may say to any journalist cannot be guaranteed to kept as private conversation, and is never subject to one's own edit, correction and approval. The journalist takes what passes between himself and the person interviewed and manipulates that as if it were raw material to be used to create the highest level of interest, amusement, indignation, or whatever is demanded of him by the current situation or his editor. This even happens in live TV interviews. The end result can be extremely unfortunate for the person who has been interviewed. Bear this in mind:- I am the only person from a western culture to ever have been trained by a Javanese karaton empu. Every time I open my mouth on the subject of keris in Jawa, it is not only I who is being weighed and judged, it is my teacher. Because of this I tend to say very little about keris when I am in Jawa. I may have been trained by Empu Suparman, but my own very considerable research has resulted in findings and theories that are very, very divergent from my teacher's position, and from the position of every other person I know who has committed seriously to the study of the keris --- with the possible exception of one very well known world authority. Even though I have very deep family roots in Jawa, it is undeniable that I am an Australian, and the product of a culture based in European culture and society. It is inevitable that in any interview conducted across a divide of language, society and culture that the result of that interview will be less than an accurate reflection of all that transpired. Add editorial requirement to less than accurate raw material, and we have something that I quite simply am not prepared to become involved in. I have no wish for, nor need of any sort of elevation of my public profile:- in short, there is nothing in a published interview that is to my benefit. I returned from a couple of months in Solo only a week ago, and I would have been pleased to meet with you whilst I was there. However, the meeting would have been at an agreed time and place, and the conversation would have been on a personal level, not for publication. I would not have been prepared to discuss keris with you, but I would have been more than prepared to discuss almost anything else, provided it did not become raw material for publication.

9th October 2011, 05:01 AM	#5
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	No more comments from me, Alan. I think all is too clear... We can meet here, at any time, any topic.... Thanks a lot, GANJAWULUNG

9th October 2011, 05:28 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	OK Jimmy. I should be back some time in the first half of 2013. The visit I have just made was not planned and has cleaned me out. If you care to diarise me for follow up in January 2013 we can take it from there.

15th October 2011, 04:28 AM	#7
Karttikeya Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 54	Sorry for late reply, I would like to say thank to both Pak Ganjawulung and Pak Alan for your such explanations. Both of you are keris connoisseurs, Pak Ganjawulung, there's no doubt that you are experienced in keris, that's shown that you are the one of selected panels in Lomba Estetika Keris last time in Yogya (correct me if I am wrong). And Pak Alan, no one who does not know you as keris expert with deep and rational analysis and highly experienced absolutely. Back to this keris, some people say this keris seems like Sombro characateristics however other people say this keris was made in Majapahit period. My question is it quite rare keris type? How its authenticity?