Hilt Replacement on an Indian Dagger.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I agree with Ibrahim on this. The restoration is very valid Imo and as long as he points it out when selling there is no problem!

Shukran Jazeelan yaa Ustadh !

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Nathaniel]

It looks fantastic, Ibrahiim. Good points regarding switching hilt tastes. Thank you very much for sharing. Beautiful job. Shukran

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

It looks fantastic, Ibrahiim. Good points regarding switching hilt tastes. Thank you very much for sharing. Beautiful job. Shukran

Salaams Nathaniel wa Afwan,
The weapons made for the Royal Court of Shah Jehan were also pitch joined at hilt and blade and the Metropolitan Museum records show how often the hilt switching occured. Personally I was pleased with the silver pin design and how well the old cow horn polished up. We have done lots of Khanajer but this was our first soirre with an Indian dagger and I'm glad you like it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[TimW]

If the knife was broken, I would have fixed it. In this case I would have kept it as it is (but that is my personal opinion), because the original repair tells an interesting story.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by TimW

If the knife was broken, I would have fixed it. In this case I would have kept it as it is (but that is my personal opinion), because the original repair tells an interesting story.

Salaams TimW,
The Katar hilt fix was a botchup. That combination would have fallen apart sharpening a pencil. However I accept your point; after all the project was placed on the forum for that purpose. The "knife" as you put it was indeed broken, so we fixed it. The original repair was a train crash! I dont see any story attached to the previous setup but I would be delighted to hear one..
Sometimes Indian Daggers were just ornamental i.e. To show off on the waistbelt at The Shahs Court rather than as a weapon and we even discussed that as a possibility. In the end we went for the full rehilt because of the state of the thing and because it was a broken half a hilt and we believed it was a missmatch wrong hilt style/wrong dagger style.
Personally I tend to avoid personal opinions myself, rather, I prefer sound research and reasoned arguement when appraising a forum topic. Or as one of my old commanding officers would say... "Mr when I want your personal opinion I'll give you it" !
This project took hours of planning and research and briefings in 3 different languages plus procurement of the right materials and workshop time and effort. What I was hoping for but didn't quite get from the forum was questions and constructive criticism on the various ancient techniques we carried out to redo this lovely artefact... all done by hand ...no power tools... hand cut and polished horn, hand made silver pins and pitch to join the blade and hilt as in the old way for blades in the "Shahs" workshop..
In fact I have developed quite an aversion to the dreadful term IMHO that I urge forum to penalise such comment because it adds nothing constructive to the knowledge base unless accompanied by sense and facts.. By all means get the books out and lets have a sensible kick the ball round debate...
Restoration is one of the main topics but we don't have a full facility to handle projects, questions and ideas... see my thread...that idea of a restoration library seems to have sunk somewhat despite a number of very good restoration projects ongoing.
I see no sense it sticking up a one liner reply that says "in my opinion etc etc "and then to be awarded that as I x post on the forum input score... On the contrary and with respect, I think those bland replies, whilst allowable, should simply score zero.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams TimW,
The Katar hilt fix was a botchup. That combination would have fallen apart sharpening a pencil. However I accept your point; after all the project was placed on the forum for that purpose. The "knife" as you put it was indeed broken, so we fixed it. The original repair was a train crash! I dont see any story attached to the previous setup but I would be delighted to hear one..
Sometimes Indian Daggers were just ornamental i.e. To show off on the waistbelt at The Shahs Court rather than as a weapon and we even discussed that as a possibility. In the end we went for the full rehilt because of the state of the thing and because it was a broken half a hilt and we believed it was a missmatch wrong hilt style/wrong dagger style.
Personally I tend to avoid personal opinions myself, rather, I prefer sound research and reasoned arguement when appraising a forum topic. Or as one of my old commanding officers would say... "Mr when I want your personal opinion I'll give you it" !
This project took hours of planning and research and briefings in 3 different languages plus procurement of the right materials and workshop time and effort. What I was hoping for but didn't quite get from the forum was questions and constructive criticism on the various ancient techniques we carried out to redo this lovely artefact... all done by hand ...no power tools... hand cut and polished horn, hand made silver pins and pitch to join the blade and hilt as in the old way for blades in the "Shahs" workshop..
In fact I have developed quite an aversion to the dreadful term IMHO that I urge forum to penalise such comment because it adds nothing constructive to the knowledge base unless accompanied by sense and facts.. By all means get the books out and lets have a sensible kick the ball round debate...
Restoration is one of the main topics but we don't have a full facility to handle projects, questions and ideas... see my thread...that idea of a restoration library seems to have sunk somewhat despite a number of very good restoration projects ongoing.
I see no sense it sticking up a one liner reply that says "in my opinion etc etc "and then to be awarded that as I x post on the forum input score... On the contrary and with respect, I think those bland replies, whilst allowable, should simply score zero.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

So long as a poster complies with our rules of conduct, he/she is welcome to post pure opinion. If those are not the comments you are interested in reading, don't read them. No one keeps "score" of post counts here anyway.

A question for clarification--you mentioned your "client". Was this item placed with you by the owner for restoration, or sold following your restoration?

[Atlantia]

Ibrahiim.

I think that there is some question here as to what the original hilt represents.

Clearly, (as I suggested in my original post) the koftgari was applied to the steel after it's modification to this shape.

I also still think that the decoration on both blade and hilt seem contemporary.

Was it original to this blade? (in as much as has it ever had a different hilt?)
I think possibly yes, quite possibly they have always been together.
I think that either way, the hilt in this configuration was IMHO completely deliberate. Strange yes, but carefully and skillfully made. Not by any means a quick fix or botched job.

As I originally said, I think it might have been to achieve a more 'Chilanum-esq' look.
Short tangs are often (in my experience) on blades cemented into metal or stone hilts.
Who knows why the maker went to such effort to decorate a modified Katar grip and mount it sideways on this blade?

When Tim suggests that there is an interesting story. He's right, there is!

I assume that from your comments about the condition, the Katar hilt was already cracked where the tang enters?
Presumably this suggests some force being used, so presumably the hilt was good and solid originally?

If it were mine, I would have liked to repair the original hilt and keep it.

That said! It's not mine, it's yours
And I think that once you've flipped the new hilt over, it'll look fine.

The horn looks like 'blonde buffalo'. I've not seen an indian hilt of this type made from it before, I'd usually associate it more with Kurdish/Ottoman daggers.

For me, strangely I think it looks like 'what it is': A Arab influenced hilt of Indo-Persian style.

I wouldn't associate the silver pinwork with Indian daggers, I would associate it with Islamic/Arab daggers.

So, I think you've taken an interesting item and turned it into...... another interesting item!

Have you flipped the hilt yet?

Best
Gene

[TimW]

I am not here to judge or tell right from wrong. I am here like all of us to learn about what we all love: ancient arms. The discussion on the choices we make whilst restoring and reworking old pieces and the reasoning behind them is as interesting as the pieces themselves.

I did not question the quality of the workmanship by the way... I am a semi pro knifemaker and can imagine the amount of time and energy invested in this piece.

Last but not least: I just try to be honest in what I tell. If I wanted to get the highest count possible, it would be easier to just say: 'Wauw, that looks great'. As I told allready, I'm here to learn, not to get into verbal fights.

[A.alnakkas]

Imho, the best of eloquence is to say so much in very little.

On topic:

As Gene have already said, Indians generally use some mineral type for such daggers. Though they may have used bakerlite aswell? It certainly looks beautiful now (would look better if you flip it so it can have flow) but it looks like a hybrid. Thats not bad ofcourse!

I noticed that indian silver workers here can do koftgari easily and some can do the animal hilt shapes so if you would contact one they might help alot in teaching your team how to imitate koftgari.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Ibrahiim.

I think that there is some question here as to what the original hilt represents.

Clearly, (as I suggested in my original post) the koftgari was applied to the steel after it's modification to this shape.

I also still think that the decoration on both blade and hilt seem contemporary.

Was it original to this blade? (in as much as has it ever had a different hilt?)
I think possibly yes, quite possibly they have always been together.
I think that either way, the hilt in this configuration was IMHO completely deliberate. Strange yes, but carefully and skillfully made. Not by any means a quick fix or botched job.

As I originally said, I think it might have been to achieve a more 'Chilanum-esq' look.
Short tangs are often (in my experience) on blades cemented into metal or stone hilts.
Who knows why the maker went to such effort to decorate a modified Katar grip and mount it sideways on this blade?

When Tim suggests that there is an interesting story. He's right, there is!

I assume that from your comments about the condition, the Katar hilt was already cracked where the tang enters?
Presumably this suggests some force being used, so presumably the hilt was good and solid originally?

If it were mine, I would have liked to repair the original hilt and keep it.

That said! It's not mine, it's yours
And I think that once you've flipped the new hilt over, it'll look fine.

The horn looks like 'blonde buffalo'. I've not seen an indian hilt of this type made from it before, I'd usually associate it more with Kurdish/Ottoman daggers.

For me, strangely I think it looks like 'what it is': A Arab influenced hilt of Indo-Persian style.

I wouldn't associate the silver pinwork with Indian daggers, I would associate it with Islamic/Arab daggers.

So, I think you've taken an interesting item and turned it into...... another interesting item!

Have you flipped the hilt yet?

Best
Gene

Salaams Gene,
Agreed ~ silver pinwork is often seen on Arabian daggers but I'm not sure it appears on Indian work at all. My craftsmen are Indian but born in this country (Oman) and have inheritted techniques from their father before ... so they have both techniques. I was interested in the blonde buffalo horn point though the muddy looking horn we started with looks like some sort of Indo or African solid tip. The final polish looks more like light jade.. As to the history of the previous join up of busted "katar" hilt and dagger I suppose a story could be woven around it however I suspect it was a total botched job. The tang was loose and the hilt split at the base and the handle could rotate through 360 degrees; not good. Wonky, split, unbalanced and in our combined view on the surgical team that refixed it with a new pistol hilt unworkable as it was but worth pumping oxygen into. I think we revived it and we can live with your description Indo Persian Arab and I agree even humourously with interesting item converted to interesting item
I think having refered now to several books on the subject (though in fact our own forum has better references than most of them) of Katar I have not yet seen a katar blade of this shape, moreover, they tend to be typically straight, vee shaped, punch dagger style quite often with no tang since they are fitted to the crossguard part (the front bar) of the katar along the entire width of the blade. This blade is a curve and a quarter. Therefor how can it have been originally a Katar? If it was only worn for show (and many were) it must have looked a bit strange? Since it didn't appear to be a kattar dagger I reasoned it must need a different hilt ? Additionally we simply did not have the expertise to rebuild the Katar hilt perfectly as you can imagine that would be a dockyard job ! Anyway the old hilt is presented with the entire project including photographs and documentation and on flipping the hilt we can do that in 5 minutes.
Your comments and constructive thoughts and questions are much appreciated. Shukran Jazeelan !

Regards,
Ibrahiim.