Polish L-guard sword: restoration project

[Evgeny_K]

[Jim McDougall]

Well posted illustration Evgeny!!! Thank you, shows these sabres in context.
Which of the Osprey publications is this from?

All best,
Jim

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well posted illustration Evgeny!!! Thank you, shows these sabres in context.
Which of the Osprey publications is this from?

All best,
Jim

Hello Jim,
I don't actually know - found this picture while googling.
Now trying to find the link.

[ariel]

Cornelistromp:
Can you source the publication where your example was published and the validation of dating?
Thanks.

[ariel]

Once again we are arguing about the permissible extent of restoration:-)


We have seen a lot of examples of restored Moro swords on this Forum ( the first example that comes to my mind). Why adding a new scabbard, handle, silver parts etc. to them is OK, while here it is not?

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Evgeny for the note, and again, excellent illustration so thank you for sharing it.

It is always good to cite sources for quoted material and particularly illustrations, not only that those of us here might seek those references for further use, but to satisfy copyright matters etc. Typically material used here is considered in fair use perameters, used for scholarly discussion....with the only caveats avoiding using material from live auction and commercial instances.
In any case, I know I like to keep references with my notes and they are helpful in future discussions.

When it comes to restorations, obviously degree and manner of such matters are a matter of personal choice to the custodian of the weapon. There are no dictations of what is acceptable or not issued here, simply matters of personal opinion. My own personal view for example on older historic weapons which are no longer used and have remained static as either hereditary icons or in the case of items excavated or found, they should be kept to as much the condition in the status ending as possible. Obviously, much as with items found on shipwrecks, they must be stabilized and corrosive activity checked.
There is typically much to be learned from artifacts found in situ, and I personally feel a much stronger connection to items unaltered and able to see elements of construction etc.

While I admit to having limited understanding of Indonesian, Philippines and Moro as well as many Southeast Asian weapons, it seems that they are much more culturally active and in many cases considered still within what we consider 'working lives'. As such, they are, again as I understand, much revered culturally and it is considered disrespectful for them to remain in damaged or compromised condition. Therefore it is my impression that rather than 'being restored' they are being maintained and properly cared for in accord with cultural expectations.

This is not to say that European or any other old swords are not culturally relevant or not entirely revered as traditional icons, which they emphatically are...it is simply that they are perceived in more of a historic view rather than current. They do deserve every bit as much respect and admiration as the weapons of any culture, and again, the manner in which that is observed and carried out is entirely a matter of personal perception.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by ariel

Cornelistromp:
Can you source the publication where your example was published and the validation of dating?
Thanks.

Ubokite Ostrice ( national museum zagreb) by Mario Kovac
isbn 953-6443-73-4

and the dating in my post #10 is wrong, it must be turn of the 17th and 18thC. 1690-1710 ( not end of 16th and early 17th).

[fernando]

Fascinating examples, Jasper.

[Jim McDougall]

Wow! Jasper these are beautiful examples and what outstanding photos!!!
These look professionally photgraphed and perfectly illustrate the particulars of these sabres. Its great to see these in real life rather than just the line drawings I have only ever seen. Are these in the museum you cited as well?
Thank you so much for posting these.

All the very best,
Jim

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

Hello Jim,
I don't actually know - found this picture while googling.
Now trying to find the link.

http://swordmaster.org/2010/10/05/bi...elnickogo.html

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Evgeny, thank you so much for retreiving the source and sharing the link. Also, thank you again for posting here and sharing this fascinating sabre!
All the very best,
Jim

[Ypoznan]

Hello.
This is my first post in this forum. At the beginning sincerely apologize for my English. I am a Pole, and unfortunately I only know the Polish language. For communication I use the electronic translator. Sorry for the mistakes and ask for your understanding.

I am not a specialist in melee weapons, but I had the opportunity to read about the sword in Polish studies. Sabre with pictures of fellow Evgeny K just seems to be of Polish origin. This suggests the construction of the blade and handle. In the seventeenth century, like sabers used also in Hungary, but they differ in structural details.

Wojciech Zabłocki In the book entitled "Cięcia prawdziwą szablą" (Cutting the true saber) sword that is classified as, a polish saber hilt model 1b. In Polish, this type handle is called a "półzamknięty" (semi-closed handle). Sabres have this type of simplified design, handles and perhaps accounted for (as suggested by the author of the book) earlier model (transition) to the most famous Polish saber - hussar saber (as determined by the author as a type 1a). There is also the view that this type of sabers were produced for the less wealthy warriors.

Polish origin saber does not exclude the use of it by the Cossacks. Especially that thousands of Cossacks to serve in the Polish army as "Kozacy rejestrowi" (Registered Cossacks). I've just limiting to the formation haul was one of the reasons Khmelnytsky Uprising. It is therefore very likely that they used it as both Poles and Cossacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_Cossacks

A few words of explanation. I am a hobbyist and am interested in mostly Spanish Navajas. Cold steel is outside the circle of my interests but once I wrote a short article about perhaps the most famous Polish saber - hussar saber - and then that I met with different types of Polish sabers. This article is posted on my website is in Polish but it is possible to automatically translate it into English. If you are interested is welcome.

http://www.navaja.pl/roznosci/76-szabla-husarska.html

Pozdrawiam serdecznie
Janusz

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, Janusz.
Splendid material you got in your website .
If you search for 'navaja' here in our forum, you will find pictures of some old examples and respective discussion.

-

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ypoznan

Hello.
This is my first post in this forum. At the beginning sincerely apologize for my English. I am a Pole, and unfortunately I only know the Polish language. For communication I use the electronic translator. Sorry for the mistakes and ask for your understanding.

I am not a specialist in melee weapons, but I had the opportunity to read about the sword in Polish studies. Sabre with pictures of fellow Evgeny K just seems to be of Polish origin. This suggests the construction of the blade and handle. In the seventeenth century, like sabers used also in Hungary, but they differ in structural details.

Wojciech Zabłocki In the book entitled "Cięcia prawdziwą szablą" (Cutting the true saber) sword that is classified as, a polish saber hilt model 1b. In Polish, this type handle is called a "półzamknięty" (semi-closed handle). Sabres have this type of simplified design, handles and perhaps accounted for (as suggested by the author of the book) earlier model (transition) to the most famous Polish saber - hussar saber (as determined by the author as a type 1a). There is also the view that this type of sabers were produced for the less wealthy warriors.

Polish origin saber does not exclude the use of it by the Cossacks. Especially that thousands of Cossacks to serve in the Polish army as "Kozacy rejestrowi" (Registered Cossacks). I've just limiting to the formation haul was one of the reasons Khmelnytsky Uprising. It is therefore very likely that they used it as both Poles and Cossacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_Cossacks

A few words of explanation. I am a hobbyist and am interested in mostly Spanish Navajas. Cold steel is outside the circle of my interests but once I wrote a short article about perhaps the most famous Polish saber - hussar saber - and then that I met with different types of Polish sabers. This article is posted on my website is in Polish but it is possible to automatically translate it into English. If you are interested is welcome.

http://www.navaja.pl/roznosci/76-szabla-husarska.html

Pozdrawiam serdecznie
Janusz

Salaams Ypoznan,

Hello and welcome to the Forum. What a superb website! you post at http://www.navaja.pl/roznosci/76-szabla-husarska.html

Here is all the information needed to begin looking at the replacement restoration hilt . Restoring the hilt following as exact a copy as possible or bringing up an old damaged hilt requires the same formula... "It should always be possible to return to the start point having caused no damage to the original piece" . Provided care is taken and that a basic programme of restoration steps is followed the weapon should be presentable at the end of the work and more or less indistinguishable from an original. Naturally, for those people who are not so handy with workshop practice the alternative is to leave it alone or have it done by an expert.
It is good to see the originator return to Forum where our enthusiasm, leadership and knowledge can assist and promote all aspects therein..through open discussion; always..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.