Another Unique Malay Sundang

[Spunjer]

Nice one, my friend! Does it have a twisty core?

[Gustav]

The engravings on hilt look like a chinese work, compare it to pendok on second keris here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=chinese+keris

Is there a possibility, such (triangular) configuration of fullers on base of blade is more sumatran then malay? Have seen such on two sumatran dreesed keris blades.

[CharlesS]

Sorry, no twistcore blade Spunjer!

[Battara]

Hate to say but the chasing work on the hilt is common okir style to the region. Maybe a Chinese silversmith made it, maybe not.

[Gustav]

Jose, I don't have the smallest part of your knowledge about okir ornamentics, yet if it more likely is a Peninsular work, I doubt we can call it okir.

The flowers on it, - this is the point of question - they look close to way peonies are depicted (comparing to other examples of design with this flower from Peninsula and Sumatra in silverwork and woodcarving), and peonies are not traditional Malay or Sumtran in design. As I understand, they are mark of strong chinese influence.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Jose, I don't have the smallest part of your knowledge about okir ornamentics, yet if it more likely is a Peninsular work, I doubt we can call it okir.

The flowers on it, - this is the point of question - they look close to way peonies are depicted (comparing to other examples of design with this flower from Peninsula and Sumatra in silverwork and woodcarving), and peonies are not traditional Malay or Sumtran in design. As I understand, they are mark of strong chinese influence.

Hello Gustav,

this is what I have read and learned as well, the peonie flower is a chinese motif so far I know.
Look for example this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13374

Regards,

Detlef

[Battara]

So what you both are saying is that anytime we see this particular flower motif it is of Chinese origin................interesting................

[kai]

Hello Gustav,

Is there a possibility, such (triangular) configuration of fullers on base of blade is more sumatran then malay? Have seen such on two sumatran dreesed keris blades.

Which keris are you thinking of? Could you please post pics? TIA!

Regards,
Kai

[Gustav]

Hello Kai,

unfortunately I don't have any pictures of these Keris. Both have had similar triangular fullers at the base, combined with elongated srawejan/kruwingan, and both Sumatran (Riau) sheaths.

You are of course wright about the Sundang I posted, the similarity is only very superficial, just this glimpse of disappeared sogokan. Here a pic of another Sundang, which is probably similar to the one in Museum.

As I wrote, I suppose, the sundang of Charles has lost some material abowe the Greneng; the space between fuller and edge should be equally broad as on the Kembang Kacang side. I think, there is some minimal markings of reshaping also abowe the (actually much to small and Moro looking) Kembang Kacang, and this space (Gusen) could originally be broader also on this side.

Sorry for the inappropriate Javanese terminology to describe the features!

I suppose also, there were some "extern" Greneng beyond the inserted dots, which is almost completely gone. As ever, the most loss of material is at the Wadidang/Greneng area. Becouse of this very common reshaping I thought, this Sundang could be slightly older (end of 19. cent.), yet your observation about angular Tungkakan is very good. I really don't know.

[kai]

Hello Gustav,

Here a pic of another Sundang, which is probably similar to the one in Museum.

That's a different type of fullering; also the features at the base of the blade differ. It's a good comparision though and shows the craftmanship I'd expect from a quality blade from the 19th c.

As I wrote, I suppose, the sundang of Charles has lost some material abowe the Greneng; the space between fuller and edge should be equally broad as on the Kembang Kacang side.

I see what you mean but from the overall proportions I'd guess that the flow of lines was just less well controlled when this blade got carved.

I think, there is some minimal markings of reshaping also abowe the (actually much to small and Moro looking) Kembang Kacang, and this space (Gusen) could originally be broader also on this side.

Not sure this really is the result of reshaping. Charles, can we get a close-up of the base features from the other side?

I suppose also, there were some "extern" Greneng beyond the inserted dots, which is almost completely gone. As ever, the most loss of material is at the Wadidang/Greneng area. Becouse of this very common reshaping I thought, this Sundang could be slightly older (end of 19. cent.),

Larger greneng would have botched up the proportions even more - I don't think this piece ever had such features.

BTW, it's common to see some broken off greneng, etc. but a completely recarved greneng area seems to be quite rare with Moro kris (as well as Malay keris sundang) - they generally are much stronger than with the keris of usual size.

Regards,
Kai

[Gustav]

[QUOTE=kai]
.
"Not sure this really is the result of reshaping. Charles, can we get a close-up of the base features from the other side?"

This line abowe Kembang Kacang is very suspicious to me, as are the whole proportions. Of course I see, this Sundang probably was never a very good work.

Is there a possibility, the whole Kembang Kacang was bigger, also with some dots? Actually the whole area looks disturbed to me. Just a speculation.

"BTW, it's common to see some broken off greneng, etc. but a completely recarved greneng area seems to be quite rare with Moro kris (as well as Malay keris sundang) - they generally are much stronger than with the keris of usual size."

The much to small incisions (size and frequency) abowe the dots look like secundary made or remains to me: I can not imagine, this is original state.

If you have a complete gusen on Greneng side (and here reshaping is clearly visible), you have space for external Greneng.