Polish L-guard sword: restoration project

Jim McDougall · 12th September 2011, 03:55 PM

Addendum:
Forgot to note another feature which I overlooked, at the juncture of the crossguard and langet is the 'Maltese Cross' which is actually the heraldic 'cross pattee' in what is termed wedge form. This device was extremely popular in Poland-Lithuania as a symbol of nobility, and of course is accordingly associated with knighthood. This cross often is seen on the armour and pennons on lances of the famed 'Winged Hussars' and seems well placed on a sabre of this period.
Returning to the interesting cartouche, at a glance there is tempting (if not tenuous) resemblance to a winged figure, which while potentially suggesting the winged hussars, may also be a pictogram signifying the Turkish 'deli', light cavalry who may have influenced the winged theme of the Polish hussars.
This would again address the possibility of this blade being Turkish, which does not seem likely at this point however.

Most blades on these sabres were apparantly produced in Poland or Hungary according to Zygulski, but it is noted that many came from Styria or Genoa. If this were either Styrian or North Italian ( all blades Italian were not necessarily from Genoa, though termed so as this was primary port of departure) one would expect to see the distinctive 'sickle marks' which are paired, dentated semi circles with triple dots at each terminal.

Though the scans added are poor in quality, they might present an idea of the type of hilt grip and backstrap likely were present. The metal would most likely have been iron, the wood grip wrapped with black leather. With mounts and scabbard covered in black leather these were often colloquially termed 'black sabres' . Better illustrations of similar hilts in line drawings are in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" Eduard Wagner, 1967 (plates 7,30). Probably the best resource for detailed response would be Michal Dziewulski at the National Museum in Krakow. He wrote the outstanding article on Polish sabres connected to our forum archive site and has worked closely with Professor Zygulski .

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2011, 06:21 PM

Interesting, and disappointing.
Evgeny, who appears to have 'left the building' apparantly chose to post his sabre here despite already being active on another forum. While I know there are a number of members out there quite well versed on these Eastern European swords, nobody bothered to add even the ever popular 'Facebook' blurbs.....yet Fernando offered courteous welcome.
With no response Evgeny returned to the other forum to post, which resulted in a whole two empty single line responses, the thread ended.

Disappointed that there were no responses here, I sought to retrace as much old information and notes as I could find to compile a worthwhile response, hoping I might be able to offer some help. I always enjoy these kinds of posts personally as I learn going through old notes and recompiling data with new context. I post the results here to share my findings, as always to continue what I have always believed is the goal here..to learn together.

I have noticed mention in a number of threads and private messages that there seems to be a lack of interest which has extended to regularly posting members and beyond the usual lurking, though the number of views appear to reflect that activity maintaining well.

I had hoped the material I presented would prove helpful to Evgeny, and as always, I am pleased to know that perhaps others find it useful as well. I also always hope that it will promote or inspire others to add material they might have or share other examples. I just wanted to express these notes on this apparantly notable condition here which I hope will improve, and I truly encourage those of you out there reading to join in. I believe collecting should include research, and teamwork and participation in discussions are rewarding and beneficial to all.

Thanks for listening,
Jim

P.S. Jeff, I just saw your post on the other thread on the ethno side, my apologies for not noting your participation ...oops!!

fernando · 14th September 2011, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Interesting, and disappointing.
Evgeny, who appears to have 'left the building' ...

There are those who like to re-enact Elvis

.
Obviously Jim, your precious posts will be a benefit to members in general; no time waisted ... never

.

cornelistromp · 14th September 2011, 07:22 PM

Jim,
I always read with delight your expert articles, I do not believe that a further contribution of Eugene is needed.
Here at least one specimen from the late 16th early 17thC.

best,

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2011, 08:15 PM

Thank you so much Fernando and Jasper! and Jasper that is a fantastic example you post, that is exactly what I was hoping for. I appreciate the kind words, but I am no expert, just a very enthusiastic lifelong student of arms. I usually research and study for many hours or longer before posting, and in doing so it is how I learn. Basically I look forward to either supported rebuttal or confirmation of my notes and especially other contributions. Then we can all update our notes!!!

All the very best,
Jim

TVV · 15th September 2011, 02:21 AM

Jim, I am far from being an expert or even someone well versed in the subject of Polish and Zaporozhian Cossack swords, but I have enjoyed reading your thorough posts on the subject. I have learnt a lot from them, and I am sure that others will also benefit from the thread in the future.

On the main question of the thread - how to make a grip to fit the sword, I would leave it without a grip if it were mine. You can guess at a grip based on surviving specimens, but there is no way of knowing how the grip of this particular sword looked like. From a historical point of view, adding a grip will temper with the authenticity of the sword as a whole, and from a collecting point of view, a new grip will not be cheap if well made and fitted, but will add $0 to the overall value of the sword (unless it is passed as being original upon resale, which will be fraudulent).

I am sure that everyone has his/her own opinion on this issue, but mine is to leave it as is: the lack of the grip does not detract from this nice sabre.

Teodor

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2011, 04:20 AM

Thank you very much Teodor, and as you know, personally I am very much with you, I believe in leaving weapons status quo with the exception of stabilizing any active rust or corrosion. As Jeff D. mentioned on the original thread, if any restoration is to be done, it should be done professionally and with considerable restraint. There is nothing worse to be than to see an old warrior stripped of the patination it earned through the years, and overcleaned to garish brightness. Not saying that Evgeny or anyone else here would do that but the concerns remain regardless.
Its always good hearing from you!
Best regards,
Jim

12th September 2011, 03:55 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Addendum: Forgot to note another feature which I overlooked, at the juncture of the crossguard and langet is the 'Maltese Cross' which is actually the heraldic 'cross pattee' in what is termed wedge form. This device was extremely popular in Poland-Lithuania as a symbol of nobility, and of course is accordingly associated with knighthood. This cross often is seen on the armour and pennons on lances of the famed 'Winged Hussars' and seems well placed on a sabre of this period. Returning to the interesting cartouche, at a glance there is tempting (if not tenuous) resemblance to a winged figure, which while potentially suggesting the winged hussars, may also be a pictogram signifying the Turkish 'deli', light cavalry who may have influenced the winged theme of the Polish hussars. This would again address the possibility of this blade being Turkish, which does not seem likely at this point however. Most blades on these sabres were apparantly produced in Poland or Hungary according to Zygulski, but it is noted that many came from Styria or Genoa. If this were either Styrian or North Italian ( all blades Italian were not necessarily from Genoa, though termed so as this was primary port of departure) one would expect to see the distinctive 'sickle marks' which are paired, dentated semi circles with triple dots at each terminal. Though the scans added are poor in quality, they might present an idea of the type of hilt grip and backstrap likely were present. The metal would most likely have been iron, the wood grip wrapped with black leather. With mounts and scabbard covered in black leather these were often colloquially termed 'black sabres' . Better illustrations of similar hilts in line drawings are in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" Eduard Wagner, 1967 (plates 7,30). Probably the best resource for detailed response would be Michal Dziewulski at the National Museum in Krakow. He wrote the outstanding article on Polish sabres connected to our forum archive site and has worked closely with Professor Zygulski . Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 12th September 2011 at 06:01 PM. Reason: add scans such as they are :)

14th September 2011, 06:21 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Interesting, and disappointing. Evgeny, who appears to have 'left the building' apparantly chose to post his sabre here despite already being active on another forum. While I know there are a number of members out there quite well versed on these Eastern European swords, nobody bothered to add even the ever popular 'Facebook' blurbs.....yet Fernando offered courteous welcome. With no response Evgeny returned to the other forum to post, which resulted in a whole two empty single line responses, the thread ended. Disappointed that there were no responses here, I sought to retrace as much old information and notes as I could find to compile a worthwhile response, hoping I might be able to offer some help. I always enjoy these kinds of posts personally as I learn going through old notes and recompiling data with new context. I post the results here to share my findings, as always to continue what I have always believed is the goal here..to learn together. I have noticed mention in a number of threads and private messages that there seems to be a lack of interest which has extended to regularly posting members and beyond the usual lurking, though the number of views appear to reflect that activity maintaining well. I had hoped the material I presented would prove helpful to Evgeny, and as always, I am pleased to know that perhaps others find it useful as well. I also always hope that it will promote or inspire others to add material they might have or share other examples. I just wanted to express these notes on this apparantly notable condition here which I hope will improve, and I truly encourage those of you out there reading to join in. I believe collecting should include research, and teamwork and participation in discussions are rewarding and beneficial to all. Thanks for listening, Jim P.S. Jeff, I just saw your post on the other thread on the ethno side, my apologies for not noting your participation ...oops!! Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th September 2011 at 04:22 AM. Reason: add note to Jeff

14th September 2011, 07:22 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Jim, I always read with delight your expert articles, I do not believe that a further contribution of Eugene is needed. Here at least one specimen from the late 16th early 17thC. best, Attached Images

14th September 2011, 08:15 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you so much Fernando and Jasper! and Jasper that is a fantastic example you post, that is exactly what I was hoping for. I appreciate the kind words, but I am no expert, just a very enthusiastic lifelong student of arms. I usually research and study for many hours or longer before posting, and in doing so it is how I learn. Basically I look forward to either supported rebuttal or confirmation of my notes and especially other contributions. Then we can all update our notes!!! All the very best, Jim

15th September 2011, 02:21 AM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Jim, I am far from being an expert or even someone well versed in the subject of Polish and Zaporozhian Cossack swords, but I have enjoyed reading your thorough posts on the subject. I have learnt a lot from them, and I am sure that others will also benefit from the thread in the future. On the main question of the thread - how to make a grip to fit the sword, I would leave it without a grip if it were mine. You can guess at a grip based on surviving specimens, but there is no way of knowing how the grip of this particular sword looked like. From a historical point of view, adding a grip will temper with the authenticity of the sword as a whole, and from a collecting point of view, a new grip will not be cheap if well made and fitted, but will add $0 to the overall value of the sword (unless it is passed as being original upon resale, which will be fraudulent). I am sure that everyone has his/her own opinion on this issue, but mine is to leave it as is: the lack of the grip does not detract from this nice sabre. Teodor

15th September 2011, 04:20 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you very much Teodor, and as you know, personally I am very much with you, I believe in leaving weapons status quo with the exception of stabilizing any active rust or corrosion. As Jeff D. mentioned on the original thread, if any restoration is to be done, it should be done professionally and with considerable restraint. There is nothing worse to be than to see an old warrior stripped of the patination it earned through the years, and overcleaned to garish brightness. Not saying that Evgeny or anyone else here would do that but the concerns remain regardless. Its always good hearing from you! Best regards, Jim