Oman, Morocco or Zanzibar?

[LPCA]

Salam Ibrahim,

I do agree with you that Europe is one track among others. It would be appropriate to leave the Eastern door wide open.
The Arabs were great traders and great travelers. No doubt that from their settlements in India, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, ... they brought innovations in all areas, including arms.

I own exactly the same Nimcha shown by kahnjar1. It is an arab nimcha made in Zanzibar, for Yemen i believe.

There are some keys to better recognize the different saïf and nimcha.

1 - the button that blocks the tang: see image (left: zanzibari - right: maghrebi - often a coin)
2 - the profile: see image - from left Saïf - Zanzibari - Maghrebi
3 - the Guard: first image: D Zanzibari guard - Second image: straight guard Maghrebi
3 - the protection against the shots sliding over the flat of the blade
image 1: Maghrebi protection (pitones) - image 2: Zanzibari protection.

With my kind regards
Louis-Pierre

[LPCA]

here are the images

LPCA

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by LPCA

Salam Ibrahim,

I do agree with you that Europe is one track among others. It would be appropriate to leave the Eastern door wide open.
The Arabs were great traders and great travelers. No doubt that from their settlements in India, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, ... they brought innovations in all areas, including arms.

I own exactly the same Nimcha shown by kahnjar1. It is an arab nimcha made in Zanzibar, for Yemen i believe.

There are some keys to better recognize the different saïf and nimcha.

1 - the button that blocks the tang: see image (left: zanzibari - right: maghrebi - often a coin)
2 - the profile: see image - from left Saïf - Zanzibari - Maghrebi
3 - the Guard: first image: D Zanzibari guard - Second image: straight guard Maghrebi
3 - the protection against the shots sliding over the flat of the blade
image 1: Maghrebi protection (pitones) - image 2: Zanzibari protection.

With my kind regards
Louis-Pierre

Thanks Louis-Pierre, I think that clarifies things, and I do appreciate your clear comparisons.
If the idea of the hilt shape is sourced from other cultures or not, I guess we in the 21st Centuiry will never know for sure. Many long hours and thousands of words mean nothing without CONCLUSIVE proof, and I suspect that hundreds of years on, we will never be absolutely sure. Sufficient to say, we can only go on information we currently have to hand.
Regards Stu

[LPCA]

Hello Stu,

Yes, you're right. It is very difficult today to have a final decision on the origins of Moroccan or Arab Zanzibari Nimcha. That is why this subject is open and no door can not be truly closed.

Take the case of this Nimcha from Oriental Arms. I trust Adni of Aïfa when he described it as Zanzibari. Yet its profile and its guard are those of a Moroccan nimcha while its protection is typical of a Zanzibari nimcha .

I got in Algiers in 1962 (independence of Algeria) in stocks of the French Army a number of weapons that were taken of war in 1830. Among them, a Moroccan nimcha used by defenders of Alger. This shows that different types of weapons were circulating well throughout the Maghreb.

Now, armed Algerian troops ensured the protection of convoys of traveling pilgrims each year to Mecca. Possible that the Moroccan nimcha of an Algerian soldier has inspired a Yemeni pilgrim who then placed an order in Zanzibar. Why not?
This is how travel perhaps influences.

Regards Louis-Pierre

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by LPCA

Hello Stu,

Yes, you're right. It is very difficult today to have a final decision on the origins of Moroccan or Arab Zanzibari Nimcha. That is why this subject is open and no door can not be truly closed.

Take the case of this Nimcha from Oriental Arms. I trust Adni of Aïfa when he described it as Zanzibari. Yet its profile and its guard are those of a Moroccan nimcha while its protection is typical of a Zanzibari nimcha .

I got in Algiers in 1962 (independence of Algeria) in stocks of the French Army a number of weapons that were taken of war in 1830. Among them, a Moroccan nimcha used by defenders of Alger. This shows that different types of weapons were circulating well throughout the Maghreb.

Now, armed Algerian troops ensured the protection of convoys of traveling pilgrims each year to Mecca. Possible that the Moroccan nimcha of an Algerian soldier has inspired a Yemeni pilgrim who then placed an order in Zanzibar. Why not?
This is how travel perhaps influences.

Regards Louis-Pierre

I have no doubt that travel and trade over the years have indeed influenced styles in (amongst other things) weapons. However it is also beyond doubt that the exact origins of styles can only be assumed by the scholars of today. There can be no DEFINATE claims made unless of course there is documented and RELIABLE proof from earlier times.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all... Whilst rumbling about in Library I was inspired to look for relative design style of the Zanzibar Nimcha hilt decoration...and in trying to identify Zanzibar as the manufactuiring base for such items...This of course is very difficult and readers are cautioned that the entire African coastal strip on mainland Africa in that region was called Zanj. Personally I suspect that other Nimcha sword forms originated in the Zanj (perhaps I will expend on that theory later) however, for now the intriguing design to an Ivory "Zanzibari" Comb bearing the same style as the hilt of the Zanzibari Nimcha shown ... from http://www.michaelbackmanltd.com/65.html

There are many Nimcha references on Library e.g http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nimcha from which the sword below is borrowed.

For Interest I also show the Buttin page.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely excellent entry Ibrahiim, and good comparison of decorative style of Zanzibari material culture applied on this sa'if hilt of 'nimcha' style. In this case we have compelling evidence comparatively suggesting this sword to have been produced in Zanzibar.
It is interesting to note that the 'D' ring guard feature which has been claimed to be a characteristic of these swords produced in Zanzibar is notably absent.

As I noted in a concurrent thread on Zanzibar nimchas, in rechecking the Buttin reference shown, all of these examples shown (#996-1002) are classified as "Arab' and from 17th into 18th centuries.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Absolutely excellent entry Ibrahiim, and good comparison of decorative style of Zanzibari material culture applied on this sa'if hilt of 'nimcha' style. In this case we have compelling evidence comparatively suggesting this sword to have been produced in Zanzibar.
It is interesting to note that the 'D' ring guard feature which has been claimed to be a characteristic of these swords produced in Zanzibar is notably absent.

As I noted in a concurrent thread on Zanzibar nimchas, in rechecking the Buttin reference shown, all of these examples shown (#996-1002) are classified as "Arab' and from 17th into 18th centuries.

Salaams Jim .. This discovery is 100% down to Michael Backman ... I was just the postman! In looking around I also pulled a few carved combs out of the system though not gold worked certainly from the same region. The "Michael Backman Comb" however sets a benchmark next to this important sword as a statement to its (the hilt) manufacture on Zanzibar.

Below another comb from the same region though not worked in gold showing the roundels in its design (similar to the roundels on the displayed Nimcha Hilt and the *"swirling roundels" on the scabbard ) and another scene of Swahili girls on Zanzibar combing hair; from www.ezakwantu.com

*A style usually attributed as Omani though the common link to Zanzibar is likely.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by blue lander

It's fascinating to see all the stylistic variations of nimchas and saifs out there. In looking through all the recent threads on the subject, it appears that they always have falling quillions above and below the blade. Which makes sense from a functional point of view.

Here's some photos of what looks like a very crude nimcha with the falling quillions on the sides of the blade rather than above and below. It's from an auction I didn't win. In fact I didn't even bid on it since it's too homely even for my low standards. Is this a known variation on the nimcha/saif? Apologies for posting such an ugly sword in a thread with such beauties

Salaams Blue Lander ~ I think you will find that Nimcha variants of this form... I mean with somewhat "flimsy hilt and guards" are a mark of the less well manufactured work coming from the Yemen .. Im not sure if the slump in quality was because of the exit in and after 1948 by Jewish craftsmen but I am aware of a huge rehilting network (Sanaa) taking blades from everywhere and anywhere... mainly Ethiopian; see example at #67 ..from 1970 ..and doing a cheap rehilting makeover often removing better hilt material for the Jambia market (Rhino) and replacing with mediocre hilts displaying very poor hilt metalwork..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Blue Lander ~ I think you will find that Nimcha variants of this form... I mean with somewhat "flimsy hilt and guards" are a mark of the less well manufactured work coming from the Yemen .. Im not sure if the slump in quality was because of the exit in and after 1948 by Jewish craftsmen but I am aware of a huge rehilting network (Sanaa) taking blades from everywhere and anywhere... mainly Ethiopian; see example at #67 ..from 1970 ..and doing a cheap rehilting makeover often removing better hilt material for the Jambia market (Rhino) and replacing with mediocre hilts displaying very poor hilt metalwork..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Nothing to do with the departure of the Jewish as these were (mainly) silversmiths.