Islamic Crossbow?

fernando · 27th July 2005, 10:57 PM

You can read in the "Historia Silense " ( Perez de Urbel y Ruiz-Zorrilla - pages 189-190 ) , in the year 1028 , during the conquist of Coimbra by Fernando I, the relate of the punishment inflicted to a Moor, that has killed his father in law Afonso V, with a crossbow.
These type of texts are or come from writings of the period, and there is no misinterpretation of terminology. A bow is an "arco" ( arch ) and a crossbow is a "besta" ( beast ) or whatever subnames derived from the crossbow evolution and variations.
In the French National Library of Paris, there is ( at least ) an illumination of the great siege of Rhodes, in 1480, where you can clearly see the gear of both Otoman Turks and the Knights Hospitalers ( St. John of Jerusalem ), with the Turks using a consistent shape of crossbows ( one with a highly powerfull cranequin, a ratchet device that spanned a 450 ratio tension ).
Naturally all this showering of examples don't bring a label stating " Made in Islam ", but you are getting each time closer to something solid.

B.I · 28th July 2005, 07:27 PM

hi all,
sorry for going absent on my own post. i seem to have walked back into some great, and very useful contributions.
jim, as you say i always thought that the greatest link would be from spain, but in my ignorance, i had not thought of portugal. i have access to saracen archery, but although i havent had a chance to access it, from previous viewings i didnt think it would yield any confirmed answers. i was looking into other things at the time so i hope i am wrong.
agtai, what you are doing is what all academics have to do. as the published accounts have produced all that they can, it is time to backtrack back into the original translations, and try and steer research past the set stumbling blocks. this has been happening for some time on the well accepted manuscripts in the hope that a re-translation may offer a different perspective. i am pleased to hear that you tackle this in the same way. i truly look forward to new finds.
krill, thanks for confirming your reference. i got the feeling this involved unpacking material and i really appreciate the effort. i will access the book and see if i can track down his references. i can get these translated, or at least read to see if they can offer any more information.
marc, your contributions have been great. you mention Cantigas de Alfonso X with illustrations. i have found this book on a few sites, but can you confirm an author. as the title is in spanish, the booksellers tend to be spanish and i would hate to buy the wrong book. i will try and send some examples for you to choose which is the correct version.
fernando, your image is wonderful. many thanks! the illustration you say is an illumination of the great siege of Rhodes, in 1480. can you confrim a date for this image? this is important and it would have to have been painted within that period. also, can you tell the the book it came from.
i really do appreciate all the help, and hope that more references will be found in time, and posted here.

Rivkin · 28th July 2005, 07:42 PM

B.I.: you are welcome, no problem. I've finished Burke "History of Archery" and "Turkish Archery" by Klopsteg and I have to say their opinion on what is crossbow and what is not is entirely different. Only turkish bow where the stirrup mechanism is explicitly mentioned is certianly a crossbow (such things indeed appear in the mentioned article in "Mamluks in Egyptian ..."). The rest of the bows seem to regular bows, and "foot bows", which the article takes to be crossbows, is just the way these bows where used - two legs holding the frame, two arms used to draw the string. My impression from Burke that qaws something is not related to the crossbow unless some special device used to draw the string is mentioned, so only some of them where actual crossbows.

fernando · 29th July 2005, 01:05 AM

It's allways a pleasure to be usefull, B.I
I found this illlumination by chance, in a book edited in portuguese, about piracy and corso.
I later found that it is included in the written account of Guillaume Caoursin, titled " Descriptio Obsidionis Rhodiae urbis " ( circa 1490 ), an eye witness of the events, actually the vice-chancelier of the Knights siege defenders at Rhodes. It is kept at the Bibliotheque National in Paris, MS lat.6067, f. 55v.
But coming to Turk crossbow version, you can also track, before these Ottomans in the Rhodes episode, already their antecessors, the Seljuks ( XI-XIII century ), having crossbowmen in their armies.
Keep Well

RSWORD · 31st July 2005, 11:20 PM

Brian,

I was at the bookstore today and ran across a book that may be of assistance to you. It is a current book by Dr. David Nicolle titled "God's Warriors" and researches the arms of the Crusaders and those of Saladdin's armies from the 11th to 13th centuries. There are a few references to crossbows being part of the Muslims armies. One in particular that is pictured illustrates a crossbow mounted inside a shield. Although no date is provided one has to assume it dates between the 11th and 13th century since all illustrations provided date to this period. This particular document was referenced to the Bodleian Library, Ms. Hunt 264, f. 117 Oxford England. There are a lot of great source material referenced in this book that talk about the weapons used in this early time frame. If you do not have this book, it might be worth tracking down just for the list of manuscripts with data that would appear important to your research.

Regards,

Rick

B.I · 1st August 2005, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Brian,

I was at the bookstore today and ran across a book that may be of assistance to you. It is a current book by Dr. David Nicolle titled "God's Warriors" and researches the arms of the Crusaders and those of Saladdin's armies from the 11th to 13th centuries. There are a few references to crossbows being part of the Muslims armies. One in particular that is pictured illustrates a crossbow mounted inside a shield. Although no date is provided one has to assume it dates between the 11th and 13th century since all illustrations provided date to this period. This particular document was referenced to the Bodleian Library, Ms. Hunt 264, f. 117 Oxford England. There are a lot of great source material referenced in this book that talk about the weapons used in this early time frame. If you do not have this book, it might be worth tracking down just for the list of manuscripts with data that would appear important to your research.

Regards,

Rick

thanks rick,
i will definately look into it. oxford is not too far and even closer via a telephone first. will track down the book and check out your reference.
much appreciated.

Aqtai · 2nd August 2005, 03:04 PM

I found Rex Smith's book, but there was no picture of a Mamluk with a crossbow.

27th July 2005, 10:57 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	You can read in the "Historia Silense " ( Perez de Urbel y Ruiz-Zorrilla - pages 189-190 ) , in the year 1028 , during the conquist of Coimbra by Fernando I, the relate of the punishment inflicted to a Moor, that has killed his father in law Afonso V, with a crossbow. These type of texts are or come from writings of the period, and there is no misinterpretation of terminology. A bow is an "arco" ( arch ) and a crossbow is a "besta" ( beast ) or whatever subnames derived from the crossbow evolution and variations. In the French National Library of Paris, there is ( at least ) an illumination of the great siege of Rhodes, in 1480, where you can clearly see the gear of both Otoman Turks and the Knights Hospitalers ( St. John of Jerusalem ), with the Turks using a consistent shape of crossbows ( one with a highly powerfull cranequin, a ratchet device that spanned a 450 ratio tension ). Naturally all this showering of examples don't bring a label stating " Made in Islam ", but you are getting each time closer to something solid. Attached Images

28th July 2005, 07:27 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi all, sorry for going absent on my own post. i seem to have walked back into some great, and very useful contributions. jim, as you say i always thought that the greatest link would be from spain, but in my ignorance, i had not thought of portugal. i have access to saracen archery, but although i havent had a chance to access it, from previous viewings i didnt think it would yield any confirmed answers. i was looking into other things at the time so i hope i am wrong. agtai, what you are doing is what all academics have to do. as the published accounts have produced all that they can, it is time to backtrack back into the original translations, and try and steer research past the set stumbling blocks. this has been happening for some time on the well accepted manuscripts in the hope that a re-translation may offer a different perspective. i am pleased to hear that you tackle this in the same way. i truly look forward to new finds. krill, thanks for confirming your reference. i got the feeling this involved unpacking material and i really appreciate the effort. i will access the book and see if i can track down his references. i can get these translated, or at least read to see if they can offer any more information. marc, your contributions have been great. you mention Cantigas de Alfonso X with illustrations. i have found this book on a few sites, but can you confirm an author. as the title is in spanish, the booksellers tend to be spanish and i would hate to buy the wrong book. i will try and send some examples for you to choose which is the correct version. fernando, your image is wonderful. many thanks! the illustration you say is an illumination of the great siege of Rhodes, in 1480. can you confrim a date for this image? this is important and it would have to have been painted within that period. also, can you tell the the book it came from. i really do appreciate all the help, and hope that more references will be found in time, and posted here.

28th July 2005, 07:42 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	B.I.: you are welcome, no problem. I've finished Burke "History of Archery" and "Turkish Archery" by Klopsteg and I have to say their opinion on what is crossbow and what is not is entirely different. Only turkish bow where the stirrup mechanism is explicitly mentioned is certianly a crossbow (such things indeed appear in the mentioned article in "Mamluks in Egyptian ..."). The rest of the bows seem to regular bows, and "foot bows", which the article takes to be crossbows, is just the way these bows where used - two legs holding the frame, two arms used to draw the string. My impression from Burke that qaws something is not related to the crossbow unless some special device used to draw the string is mentioned, so only some of them where actual crossbows.

29th July 2005, 01:05 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	It's allways a pleasure to be usefull, B.I I found this illlumination by chance, in a book edited in portuguese, about piracy and corso. I later found that it is included in the written account of Guillaume Caoursin, titled " Descriptio Obsidionis Rhodiae urbis " ( circa 1490 ), an eye witness of the events, actually the vice-chancelier of the Knights siege defenders at Rhodes. It is kept at the Bibliotheque National in Paris, MS lat.6067, f. 55v. But coming to Turk crossbow version, you can also track, before these Ottomans in the Rhodes episode, already their antecessors, the Seljuks ( XI-XIII century ), having crossbowmen in their armies. Keep Well

31st July 2005, 11:20 PM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Brian, I was at the bookstore today and ran across a book that may be of assistance to you. It is a current book by Dr. David Nicolle titled "God's Warriors" and researches the arms of the Crusaders and those of Saladdin's armies from the 11th to 13th centuries. There are a few references to crossbows being part of the Muslims armies. One in particular that is pictured illustrates a crossbow mounted inside a shield. Although no date is provided one has to assume it dates between the 11th and 13th century since all illustrations provided date to this period. This particular document was referenced to the Bodleian Library, Ms. Hunt 264, f. 117 Oxford England. There are a lot of great source material referenced in this book that talk about the weapons used in this early time frame. If you do not have this book, it might be worth tracking down just for the list of manuscripts with data that would appear important to your research. Regards, Rick

2nd August 2005, 03:04 PM	#7
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I found Rex Smith's book, but there was no picture of a Mamluk with a crossbow.