Oman, Morocco or Zanzibar?

LPCA · 6th August 2011, 05:02 AM

Hi Kurt,

difficult to say something on the blade as details are missing and the image does not help much. The shape could be from 17 to 19°.

Of course, Moroccan Jews also knew the work of niello. But here they seem to have used a more traditional technique in Morocco. Either a silver plate is engraved with patterns, either 2 silver plates are welded together. The top plate is first cut with patterns and then plated (soldered) on a silver plate as a support. This creates a relief that highlighted by shading the visible parts of the support plate. This work is often seen on Koumiya.

See U.
Louis-Pierre

Kurt · 6th August 2011, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LPCA

Hi Kurt,

difficult to say something on the blade as details are missing and the image does not help much. The shape could be from 17 to 19°.

Of course, Moroccan Jews also knew the work of niello. But here they seem to have used a more traditional technique in Morocco. Either a silver plate is engraved with patterns, either 2 silver plates are welded together. The top plate is first cut with patterns and then plated (soldered) on a silver plate as a support. This creates a relief that highlighted by shading the visible parts of the support plate. This work is often seen on Koumiya.

See U.
Louis-Pierre

Thank you Louis -Pierre ,
Your explanations were very helpful .
Best
Kurt

Kurt · 7th August 2011, 04:24 PM

Hi ,
Have found those pictures in my sold archives .
Think it is a Saif from the 18 century.
Does anyone know more?
Regards
Kurt

sorry for my bad English !

tom hyle · 9th August 2011, 05:16 AM

very interesting! This style pommel is usually seen on Middle Eastern Arab swords, but usually with a Turkish/Persian style guard; here we see it with the Coastal African "nimcha" guard; an interesting combination.

tom hyle · 9th August 2011, 05:23 AM

Is that a picture of a double edged broadsword on the pommel of a saber?

Kurt · 9th August 2011, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Is that a picture of a double edged broadsword on the pommel of a saber?

Hi Tom ,
Yes, it looks like a broadsword.
But I think it should represent the sword of the prophet.
Best
Kurt

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2011, 05:36 PM

The sharply angled hilt on this silver mounted sabre reminds me very much of certain Palestinian or Sinai Bedouin sabres, most of which I have seen are with crudely fashioned wood hilts and seem almost 'shashka' like. The heavy sabre trade blade seems like its been around a while, and interesting to see these most attractive mounts incorporating the Moroccan sa'if hilt. As such a hybrid it would be hard to accurately place in these more modern mounts, but definitely has some history, particularly the blade.
Interestingly the blockish and angled pommel cap, while of course aligned somewhat with the more refined design on most Persian shamshirs, has distinct affinity to certain early (c.1790s) British cavalry sabres. These in turn derived from a number of European 'hussar' sabres in use for considerable time before.

By propensity of style this sabre might be considered a Maghrebi anomaly, however it seems more likely from Arabian regions congruent to or with perhaps intertribal contact with these Bedouin groups in the areas mentioned.

Regarding the intriguing broadsword on the pommel cap, the Saudi Arabian emblem with Dhul'fiqar (I hope I spelled that correctly) does represent the Sword of the Prophet with bifurcated point as typically seen. However the Broadsword (double edged) seen here does show a distinct ridge or fuller in the blade center, bisecting the blade. As I have been led to understand, the translation of Dhul' fiqar is literally 'possessor of spines' (believed to be of course fullering) and perhaps here simply represents the 'cloven' or in two concept. In any case the mounts are of the type seen on the Sacred Swords in Istanbul, and very well may be intended to represent the Sword of the Prophet.

LPCA · 9th August 2011, 06:06 PM

Nein, nein, nein, Kurt, not one of the Prophet saber for a lot of reasons

see there http://le-carrefour-de-lislam.com/At...eliquiae_2.htm

Yes Jim, it looks like a telescoping of an arabian Middle Eastern saïf and a Moroccan Nimcha guard. A blade of broad saber.
Really very curious.

Louis-Pierre

7th August 2011, 04:24 PM	#3
Kurt Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Germany Posts: 197	Nimcha ? Saif ? Hi , Have found those pictures in my sold archives . Think it is a Saif from the 18 century. Does anyone know more? Regards Kurt sorry for my bad English ! Attached Images

9th August 2011, 05:36 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	The sharply angled hilt on this silver mounted sabre reminds me very much of certain Palestinian or Sinai Bedouin sabres, most of which I have seen are with crudely fashioned wood hilts and seem almost 'shashka' like. The heavy sabre trade blade seems like its been around a while, and interesting to see these most attractive mounts incorporating the Moroccan sa'if hilt. As such a hybrid it would be hard to accurately place in these more modern mounts, but definitely has some history, particularly the blade. Interestingly the blockish and angled pommel cap, while of course aligned somewhat with the more refined design on most Persian shamshirs, has distinct affinity to certain early (c.1790s) British cavalry sabres. These in turn derived from a number of European 'hussar' sabres in use for considerable time before. By propensity of style this sabre might be considered a Maghrebi anomaly, however it seems more likely from Arabian regions congruent to or with perhaps intertribal contact with these Bedouin groups in the areas mentioned. Regarding the intriguing broadsword on the pommel cap, the Saudi Arabian emblem with Dhul'fiqar (I hope I spelled that correctly) does represent the Sword of the Prophet with bifurcated point as typically seen. However the Broadsword (double edged) seen here does show a distinct ridge or fuller in the blade center, bisecting the blade. As I have been led to understand, the translation of Dhul' fiqar is literally 'possessor of spines' (believed to be of course fullering) and perhaps here simply represents the 'cloven' or in two concept. In any case the mounts are of the type seen on the Sacred Swords in Istanbul, and very well may be intended to represent the Sword of the Prophet. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 9th August 2011 at 06:00 PM.

6th August 2011, 05:02 AM	#1
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Hi Kurt, difficult to say something on the blade as details are missing and the image does not help much. The shape could be from 17 to 19°. Of course, Moroccan Jews also knew the work of niello. But here they seem to have used a more traditional technique in Morocco. Either a silver plate is engraved with patterns, either 2 silver plates are welded together. The top plate is first cut with patterns and then plated (soldered) on a silver plate as a support. This creates a relief that highlighted by shading the visible parts of the support plate. This work is often seen on Koumiya. See U. Louis-Pierre

9th August 2011, 05:16 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	very interesting! This style pommel is usually seen on Middle Eastern Arab swords, but usually with a Turkish/Persian style guard; here we see it with the Coastal African "nimcha" guard; an interesting combination.

9th August 2011, 05:23 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Is that a picture of a double edged broadsword on the pommel of a saber?

9th August 2011, 06:06 PM	#8
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Nein, nein, nein, Kurt, not one of the Prophet saber for a lot of reasons see there http://le-carrefour-de-lislam.com/At...eliquiae_2.htm Yes Jim, it looks like a telescoping of an arabian Middle Eastern saïf and a Moroccan Nimcha guard. A blade of broad saber. Really very curious. Louis-Pierre