2 swords for ID please.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi David,
Absolutely my pleasure!!! Its fun looking into these and I hope they turn up to be as noted, Napoleonic provenance. Stuff this long together and left pretty much static all these years are pretty compelling circumstances.
Guess this will not be one of my long boring posts the one deleted was some weird glitch I havent seen before, but it posted your post which I quoted and my text disappeared.......maybe it was the UFO program on TV that was on.
First animal mutilations, then human abductions..now my posts!!!!

Lets keep looking, I know Ive seen that langet style somewhere!

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Hi Jim,
UFO's you say.....not been 'hittin' a few single malts at the same time as the books, have we ?? ...

I've posted the sword on SFI ....it has been suggested that as the stirrup guard would have been steel, it would have been un-usual for a French sword. The langets were also questionable for a French sword. Suggested countries were Italy or even Britain. The Langet shape is a common 'British' shape ...but I have not found one with the 'striped' design.

Kind Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

LOL! Good one David! and actually I'ver been known to have a Drambuie or two while on these 'adventures' .......there was the incident of swinging the tulwar around during a stirring rendition of some heavy metal thunder and forgetting about the ceiling fan whirring above me

Good points on the stripes not likely being French, and agreed it seems the French in these times favored an elliptical shape on most langets. It's funny, noting your mention of SFI.....over there it is strictly verboten to mention our forum ......I was warned in one instance where I did, just prior to my encouragement to leave entirely for the unforgivable transgression of posting too much. Here there is no problem, we are aware there are other forums and actually have no fear of that. Here I'm free to babble as much as I like

The vertical fluting was much favored as early as Revolutionary War (checked Neumann, but no luck), also checked Blair, no luck there either.
French weapons are pretty specialized, and I sure miss having Jean Binck around. The guys who have references like Buigne and Aries dont seem to visit here much and we seldom see French swords posted.

The search goes on.

All the best,
Jim

[Hotspur]

In this sabre the pommel is of similar form to the officers swords later in the century, and the fluted grips also. French sword grips often had vertical fluting but ebony was much more common. The interesting vertically sectioned langet seems to suggest U.S. as well as the notably parabolically curved blade. These strong curves were much favored on some of the earlier U.S. sabres, particularly those made by the Virginia Manufactory. Many of these early sabres were incredibly long with dramatic curve, and most were shortened down by Confederate officers during the 'War Between the States' (Civil War) as I was told vehemently to call it when I lived in Nashville!

There is nothing comparable in "The American Sword" (H.L.Peterson) but I just noticed Fernando's astute comment....the material in the grip does indeed appear 'organic' and when cleaned...ebony? If so, this is French I would think.

Hi Jim,

It is sometimes hard not to counter formula such as 4+16=47 because we can be pretty sure it is false. Both the reeded grips and funky langets are hardly American at all, with parallels easily found on British cutlery, the source of many American arms in the post revolution period. While I could point to/attach many examples of the grips and langet style on American market eagle head pommels, the cutlery and forms are still distinctly British, French and Prussian.

Peterson does not go to the long neck French pommels but contemporary upscale officers swords being cutlered in America are found there (for instance Emmor T Weaver). The work of American swordmakers aside, the upswept blade is also hardly unique to the U.S. and the trend lasts for decades on the continent.

So I can see how you can get to 47 by adding 4 and 16 with a good bit of supposition but we cold also suppose Birmingham was really in Alsace

The noodly design on the langet is not uncommon at all on British swords and the iron hilt kind of odd for France but not as odd if perhaps put together by a cutler drawing from different sources.

As an addendum to Peterson, we now have the Medicus collection indexed with little speculation but there are some examples f these long neck French types. Not surprising to me that both Stuart Mowbray and Norm Flayderman segregate them on a single page while listing them as not made for American use ut may have been carried by an American.

Stating French design dominating U.S. swords after the revolution is a bit off as well because the market was by and large being supplied by England and Prussia. It is not until the demise of swords such as the American 1833 dragoon that a real coalition and adoption of French style then prevails.

One aside on the thought of highly upswept blades is that there was meant to be less shock transmitted in a passing blow. At times that may be seen taken to an extreme. We could then add 57 and point out dragoons were often and really meant as mounted infabtry, thus why we might find a spadroon blade embellished to a dragoon, or why sabre blades were clipped in history to better suit fighing on foot.

So if we add 47 and 57, I guess we come up with 96

Cheers and happy Sunday

GC

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Glen,
Very well made points, and all well taken......good math analogy too! In reading your comments I can clearly see the weaker points in my comments which should have been more carefully worded. Actually I wish I had the Mowbray book on eagleheads and I remember well Flayderman and the Medicus colledction.....it has been so many years since I was involved in these areas of collecting. Your knowledge on these weapons is commendable and outstanding, and thank you for clarifying these important points.

You are absolutely right on the period of French domination on influence of American weapons actually after the M1833 (which was indeed very much the design of the British M1821) and the import of Solingen products was very much in place. Though the M1840 dragoon sabre was indeed modelled on the French sabres, as I understand Ames was not entirely prepared to produce and some of the first examples were Solingen produced...followed by Ames who became the primary producer, followed by others.

When I noted the vertically reeded grips I was thinking of the number of these seen among American swords used in the Revolutionary War and it seems the form in ivory remained in the NCO and militia swords of c.1840s.

Actually I didn't mean to imply that the deep parabolic blades were unique to the U.S. (again my wording) only that they seemed to be favored in these Virginia sabres of the first pattern. Naturally on the Continent they were quite well known and I have a British M1796 with one of these extremely parabolic blades as well, with pipe or rod back. I understand that many of the flank company officers in Great Britain favored these type blades.

I think your abstract math analogy is perfect in reference to these swords and blades from the American Revolution, and into the 19th century with the commerce of England, France and Prussia. The American use of so many types of swords from so many countries; the Solingen supply of blades to France and Napoleon's development of the blademaking center at Klingenthal in Alsace, which has been alternately German and French so often; and the complex sword scandals in England between German imports and English made blades are perplexing to say the least!!

Thank you again Glen, for answering me personally, and especially for bringing out these most valid points. I still would like to find more on this sabre, I think the Austrian ID on the other pretty sound.

All the very best,
Jim

[katana]

Here is a picture provided by a very helpful formite on SFI. It is described as a light cavalry sword....likely, mine is the Infantry Officer's variant. The blade inscibed "Vive Napoleon" .....long live Napoleon ...so obviously French. The hilt not a perfect match, but, too close to ignore. It has also been suggested that the more parabolic curved blade (marmaluke style blade) on my example, is quite rare.
It seems that the evidence is starting to strongly suggest French and, possibly, of the Napoleonic era. I have read that the stirrup hilts were prone to battle damage and in the case of the Cavalry, damage from the rider falling from his horse (with sword in hand).

Kind Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

This is excellent David, and thank you for posting this beautiful saber which truly does offer compelling evidence to Napoleonic French for your saber.

I have been pondering over Glen's well presented rebuttal concerning some of my previous comments concerning my thoughts toward possible U.S. provenance for this, and the close ties between American and French swords both during and post Revolutionary War. As noted, I was drawing on somewhat distant recollections, but wanted to illustrate the sources as well as points for consideration which led me to my comments.

I looked to H.L.Peterson's "The American Sword" and found interesting notes concerning swords of the U.S. Marines, who of course still use the Mameluke sabre adopted from thier exposure to these during wars with the 'Barbary Pirates' in 1801-1805. These same type ivory hilted sabres were adopted by the French and British after thier campaigns in Egypt.
Interestingly, Peterson (#142, p.165) notes one of the early swords used by the Marines from 1804-1818. While most Marine swords seem to have followed artillery officers swords of the time, this interesting sabre (which apparantly belonged to Francis Wharton, the commandant) .."illustrates a type of French sword which was quite popular among American officers of the period".
On p.192 (Peterson, op.cit. #159) the eaglehead sword presented to to Lt. Presley O'Bannon of the Marines for his valor at the action at Derna in 1805 has the distinct knucklegard feature of the drop down semi arc seen on the Napoleonic sabre posted here. This sabre was Baltimore made and reflects again the French influence on American swords.

Another interesting case illustrating the common thread between French and American swords brings in, as noted, the British. The British infantry officers sword known as the pattern 1786 (or commonly 'five ball hilt') has the five bead pattern on the knuckleguard as well as on the raised crossguard. Brian Robson ("British Military Swords", p.107, fig. 4) notes that around 1790 a "...similar hilt in either gold or silver, described as a'l'anglaise (in the English style) was in use in France from about 1800, mainly by naval and dragoon officers. A hilt of the same kind was prescribed for infantry officers in the American army between 1812-1840".

Returning to the mameluke sabre of the USMC, it cannot be stated that the style was taken from either the French or the British, but interestingly seems derived from separate influence with the Barbary pirate wars noted despite being contemporary with those used by French and British officers in these times. The mameluke sabre was described in Marine regulations of 1825, but it is noted that Marine officers were likely wearing them prior.

With these notes I would qualify my reference to French influence in military fashion and weapons as being in considerable degree rather than typical, and avoid implying 'dominant'.

It seems that post Revolutionary War the neoclassicism in Greco-Roman themes of French style of the times was in distinct accord with America's growing national identity, and well received in conjunction with other American patriotic symbolism. After France joined the United States in the war naturally many numbers of French swords such as the M1767 grenadier sabres and others were well represented. Peterson notes, concerning the NCO sword adopted in 1840 (p.13) that the form was "...based principally on a type used in the French army", but that it was also reminiscent of a model used in England.

With regard to the comments on the long, parabolically curved blades I wanted to add the references I was thinking of in suggesting this sabre might be of the type of early U.S. form. Peterson (op.cit. pp.26-27) discusses the Virginia Manufactory sabres of 1803-1820, known collectively as types #1, #2 and hunts at a third, with variations on hilt and somewhat blades. I had noted that these were later altered by Confederate officers during the Civil War from the dramatic 40 1/2" curved blades, shortened to 35".
The notes to 18th century cavalry being 'dragoons' and actually mounted infantry who dismounted and fought on foot usually are well placed. It was in the latter 18th century when the fast moving light cavalry concept was being adopted from East Europe and Continental forces that the use of the sabre became prevalent for cavalry in England. On the Continent the use of the sabre for cavalry was around considerably before this.
By the end of the 18th century there were indeed similarities in the swords/sabres used by cavalry, infantry officers, and artillery officers. in many cases as well, naval officers used sabres of cavalry type, shorter of course.

All of this does not necessarily offer more to the identification of David's fascinating sabre, and I simply wanted to reinforce the connections between U.S. and French swords from the Revolutionary War into the 19th century.
The vertically lined shield type langet to me was quite reminiscent of Federal period motif, though the 'halbrundschild' type heater (shield) is more Austrian or Swiss via heraldic standards. The 'Phrygian helmet' style pommel (Peterson, p.44) is as noted known quite early in French neoclassic hilt features and used in many U.S. sword forms through the 19th c.

Anthony North notes in his "18th and 19th Century Europe" ("Swords and Hilt Weapons" , ed. M.Coe, 1989, p.92), that "...in France, in the Directoire and Consulate periods, French officers were presented with simple brass stirrup hilted swords, inscribed on the scabbard with details of the campaign in which they were won. A number of scabbards are inscribed 'Armee d' Italie' for example, commemorating Napoleons campaign against the Austrians in 1796. Boutets Versailles factory made silver hilted sabres for presentation".

This presents the texture of Napoleonic presentation sabres, and the kinds of weapons which were clearly given to officers in varying circumstances. Is it possible that this sabre may have been self commissioned by a patriotic officer in Napoleons service?

The deeply curved blade as noted was to augment slashing power in the drawcut, delivered from a fast moving mount...in noticing the unusual rounded blade tip, I would point out that these type blades are seen also on broadswords to increase cutting potential in slashing cuts. Would these together reinforce a cavalrymans sabre?

All best regards,
Jim

[katana]

Originally Posted by katana

Here is a picture provided by a very helpful formite on SFI. It is described as a light cavalry sword....likely, mine is the Infantry Officer's variant. The blade inscibed "Vive Napoleon" .....long live Napoleon ...so obviously French. The hilt not a perfect match, but, too close to ignore. It has also been suggested that the more parabolic curved blade (marmaluke style blade) on my example, is quite rare.
Kind Regards David

Hi Jim and Glen,
interesting discourse ...I have learnt some lessons thank you.

The picture I thought was a light cavalry sword is in fact an Infantry Officers sword....the blade also shows similarity to my own.

I assume that the finial on the pommel is a tang nut...can anyone confirm this for me, thank you

Kind Regards David