What do the holes mean??

[LPCA]

Hi Jim

Have a glance please to the Takouba team as we had some talks (Iain and I)

Have a nice day.
LP

[David]

Thought you might be interested in an older example (dress is contemporary)...four holes...now i wonder what THAT means...

[A. G. Maisey]

Perhaps David we should consider this to be 3 holes + 1 hole?

Oh goodness me I love this esoteric hypothesising.

Interestingly Harsrinuksmo, who was not at all shy about floating the odd hypothesis here and there did not say much at all in this regard about kudis and kujangs.

What he did say was that the people who might have known were long gone.

Something I personally find very interesting is that with the passing of time how much more previously unknown information becomes available for us to be astonished by.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Perhaps David we should consider this to be 3 holes + 1 hole?

Oh goodness me I love this esoteric hypothesising.

Interestingly Harsrinuksmo, who was not at all shy about floating the odd hypothesis here and there did not say much at all in this regard about kudis and kujangs.

What he did say was that the people who might have known were long gone.

Something I personally find very interesting is that with the passing of time how much more previously unknown information becomes available for us to be astonished by.

Well Alan, i suppose the "logical" hypothesis with my 3+1 hole kudi is that it is some kind of transition piece between Hindu and Islamic. :-)
Maybe the owner was a Hindu who had a Muslim son-in-law...
Honestly i find the hypothesizing to be an interesting exercise. My only problem is that we must be very careful to remember that in the end we really haven't a clue and that we don't propagate any of this "information" as fact. Dave's retelling of what a dealer in Solo (whose is selling him contemporary kudi as Dave has noted) told him about the significance of these holes is long and detailed including the names of empus and dates and places. This report has an air of authority and certainty (partly due to all the names and dates), but what is the real source of this information? It would be very tempting to accept this report as fact and just as tempting to pass it along next time the question arises. But is it fact or merely a salesman's pitch? I don't think there is any way that we can tell for sure.
Jim's thought on the subject show just how easy it is to pass along a theory in his research that might well be taken as fact by another reader. Jim may well have read it think it just a theory, but when an idea is presented again and again it very often has a nasty habit of taking on a life of its own. Krockew's reporting of these same ideas was no more supported by any solid evidence as Dave's dealer story (names and dates not withstanding) so it remains nothing more than a hypothesis IMHO.

[Rick]

The Seller lost me at this point :

" Nowadays, the kujang is often decorated in homes as it is believed to bring about luck, protection, honor, etc. They are displayed in pairs on walls with the inner edge facing each other. There is a taboo, however--no one is to be photographed standing in-between them as this would somehow cause the death of that person within a year. I have been assured by a senior practitioner of Kejawen the truth of this, as he had witnessed this himself. Why this occurs is not known for certain, we might shrug it off as superstition, coincidence or synchronicity but behind every phenomenon cosmic laws and intelligences are at work; we just need to discover what those laws are and the mind-set of those metaphysical intelligences directing those laws to know the reason for the anomaly. "

Pass the salt please .

[DaveA]

I absolutely agree that a grain of salt (at least) is warranted. The dealer is a native of Solo, Java and deeply embedded in the culture. Melia is actually an accountant and is very motivated to preserve traditional Java culture and the artisanship such as crafting of the weapons we admire so much. By selling contemporary works, she helps keep the village industries alive. So while she definitely wants to sell, she also wants to get the story right. Her magical thinking is not uncommon -- it is part of the culture she wishes to preserve. It shouldn't necessarily disqualify other parts of her story that may be more grounded in fact (and easier to verify). I'm not a historian or ethnographer but as a scientist I am a true believer in evidence. All of these stories are interesting, but when considering them as reliable data our confidence must be tempered by great uncertainty until there there is more corroborating evidence. All theories are contingent.

[David]

Dave, i don't think that i or anyone here would question the value of selling contemporary examples of weapons and keeping alive the artisanship of creating these wonderful cultural weapons. But when we speak of traditional Javanese culture we must question which of those traditions we are talking about. Over the centuries the traditions have changed and the past has been somewhat "re-invented" numerous times. So which part of Javanese culture is she trying to preserve? It's pre-Hindu animistic traditions, it's Hindu influenced traditions, It's Islamic traditions or perhaps the relatively recent revival of Kejawen tradition? Add to this that the kudi is a Sundanese weapon which is not technically part of Javanese culture to begin with. So i am not implying that this woman is lying to you to make a sale, but she may well be relating information to you which is colored by her own specific belief system(s).
"It shouldn't necessarily disqualify other parts of her story that may be more grounded in fact (and easier to verify)"
I am curious exactly which part of her explanation you find to be "easier to verify".

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

Thought you might be interested in an older example (dress is contemporary)...four holes...now i wonder what THAT means...

'OK, splain THIS!!!'
-Ricky Ricardo