What do the holes mean??

LPCA · 5th August 2011, 05:15 AM

Hello,

Here under, a translation of the French text on the Kijang-Kudi in my study on Keris ( my site Blade http://blade.japet.com/KRISS/K-Arme-.../Kudi/Kudi.htm). It does not claim that's the truth.

Originally from West Java (Pasundan - Sundan), the Kujang (Kudi) was first an agricultural widespread.

- By the XII°, it takes value as talisman with a blade having two characteristics:

- the shape of the island of "Djawa Dwipa" (the current Java) representing the ideal of unification of small kingdoms into one empire.
- 3 holes in the blade representing the Trimurti or three main aspects of Hindu religion: Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva (also representing the three main kingdoms of Java).

- When the Muslim influence grew, the base of Kujang (corresponding to the country geographically Sundan) was modified to take the form of the Arabic letter "Syin" (first letter of the verse "Syahadat" by which the devotee expresses belonging to Islam). Similarly, five holes representing the five pillars of Islam has replaced on the blade the 3 holes of the Trimurti.

Usually, they are talismans worn by Pawang (magicians) and Brahman. The variety of derivative forms is important. It can be mounted either on a short handle or shaft of a spear.

Hope that help.

Louis-Pierre

Jim McDougall · 5th August 2011, 05:38 AM

Absolutely fantastic information Dave and Louis-Pierre!!! Thank you so much.
Truly a fascinating weapon with this history and explanation of thier symbolism.

All best regards,
Jim

LPCA · 5th August 2011, 05:53 AM

Hi Jim

Have a glance please to the Takouba team as we had some talks (Iain and I)

Have a nice day.
LP

David · 5th August 2011, 09:27 AM

Thought you might be interested in an older example (dress is contemporary)...four holes...now i wonder what THAT means...

A. G. Maisey · 5th August 2011, 11:09 AM

Perhaps David we should consider this to be 3 holes + 1 hole?

Oh goodness me I love this esoteric hypothesising.

Interestingly Harsrinuksmo, who was not at all shy about floating the odd hypothesis here and there did not say much at all in this regard about kudis and kujangs.

What he did say was that the people who might have known were long gone.

Something I personally find very interesting is that with the passing of time how much more previously unknown information becomes available for us to be astonished by.

David · 5th August 2011, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Perhaps David we should consider this to be 3 holes + 1 hole?

Oh goodness me I love this esoteric hypothesising.

Interestingly Harsrinuksmo, who was not at all shy about floating the odd hypothesis here and there did not say much at all in this regard about kudis and kujangs.

What he did say was that the people who might have known were long gone.

Something I personally find very interesting is that with the passing of time how much more previously unknown information becomes available for us to be astonished by.

Well Alan, i suppose the "logical" hypothesis with my 3+1 hole kudi is that it is some kind of transition piece between Hindu and Islamic. :-)
Maybe the owner was a Hindu who had a Muslim son-in-law...

Honestly i find the hypothesizing to be an interesting exercise. My only problem is that we must be very careful to remember that in the end we really haven't a clue and that we don't propagate any of this "information" as fact. Dave's retelling of what a dealer in Solo (whose is selling him contemporary kudi as Dave has noted) told him about the significance of these holes is long and detailed including the names of empus and dates and places. This report has an air of authority and certainty (partly due to all the names and dates), but what is the real source of this information? It would be very tempting to accept this report as fact and just as tempting to pass it along next time the question arises. But is it fact or merely a salesman's pitch? I don't think there is any way that we can tell for sure.
Jim's thought on the subject show just how easy it is to pass along a theory in his research that might well be taken as fact by another reader. Jim may well have read it think it just a theory, but when an idea is presented again and again it very often has a nasty habit of taking on a life of its own. Krockew's reporting of these same ideas was no more supported by any solid evidence as Dave's dealer story (names and dates not withstanding) so it remains nothing more than a hypothesis IMHO.

Rick · 5th August 2011, 04:05 PM

The Seller lost me at this point :

" Nowadays, the kujang is often decorated in homes as it is believed to bring about luck, protection, honor, etc. They are displayed in pairs on walls with the inner edge facing each other. There is a taboo, however--no one is to be photographed standing in-between them as this would somehow cause the death of that person within a year. I have been assured by a senior practitioner of Kejawen the truth of this, as he had witnessed this himself. Why this occurs is not known for certain, we might shrug it off as superstition, coincidence or synchronicity but behind every phenomenon cosmic laws and intelligences are at work; we just need to discover what those laws are and the mind-set of those metaphysical intelligences directing those laws to know the reason for the anomaly. "

Pass the salt please .

Jim McDougall · 6th August 2011, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Thought you might be interested in an older example (dress is contemporary)...four holes...now i wonder what THAT means...

'OK, splain THIS!!!'

-Ricky Ricardo

DaveA · 4th May 2013, 11:31 PM

Hello all,

I'm resurrecting this thread (perhaps too strong a word) since I stumbled upon a diagram today that associates the number of holes in a kudi/kujang with the number of months in a pregnancy (1 to 9). The original can be found here: http://picturepush.com/+bQhR

There are also some interesting other graphs showing varieties of Kudi / Kujang that you can click through to visit.

Best,

Dave A.

5th August 2011, 09:27 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Thought you might be interested in an older example (dress is contemporary)...four holes...now i wonder what THAT means... Attached Images

4th May 2013, 11:31 PM	#9
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 415	Holes in Kudi / Kujang Hello all, I'm resurrecting this thread (perhaps too strong a word) since I stumbled upon a diagram today that associates the number of holes in a kudi/kujang with the number of months in a pregnancy (1 to 9). The original can be found here: http://picturepush.com/+bQhR There are also some interesting other graphs showing varieties of Kudi / Kujang that you can click through to visit. Best, Dave A. Attached Images

5th August 2011, 05:15 AM	#1
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Hello, Here under, a translation of the French text on the Kijang-Kudi in my study on Keris ( my site Blade http://blade.japet.com/KRISS/K-Arme-.../Kudi/Kudi.htm). It does not claim that's the truth. Originally from West Java (Pasundan - Sundan), the Kujang (Kudi) was first an agricultural widespread. - By the XII°, it takes value as talisman with a blade having two characteristics: - the shape of the island of "Djawa Dwipa" (the current Java) representing the ideal of unification of small kingdoms into one empire. - 3 holes in the blade representing the Trimurti or three main aspects of Hindu religion: Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva (also representing the three main kingdoms of Java). - When the Muslim influence grew, the base of Kujang (corresponding to the country geographically Sundan) was modified to take the form of the Arabic letter "Syin" (first letter of the verse "Syahadat" by which the devotee expresses belonging to Islam). Similarly, five holes representing the five pillars of Islam has replaced on the blade the 3 holes of the Trimurti. Usually, they are talismans worn by Pawang (magicians) and Brahman. The variety of derivative forms is important. It can be mounted either on a short handle or shaft of a spear. Hope that help. Louis-Pierre

5th August 2011, 05:38 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Absolutely fantastic information Dave and Louis-Pierre!!! Thank you so much. Truly a fascinating weapon with this history and explanation of thier symbolism. All best regards, Jim

5th August 2011, 05:53 AM	#3
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Hi Jim Have a glance please to the Takouba team as we had some talks (Iain and I) Have a nice day. LP

5th August 2011, 11:09 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	Perhaps David we should consider this to be 3 holes + 1 hole? Oh goodness me I love this esoteric hypothesising. Interestingly Harsrinuksmo, who was not at all shy about floating the odd hypothesis here and there did not say much at all in this regard about kudis and kujangs. What he did say was that the people who might have known were long gone. Something I personally find very interesting is that with the passing of time how much more previously unknown information becomes available for us to be astonished by.

5th August 2011, 04:05 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	The Seller lost me at this point : " Nowadays, the kujang is often decorated in homes as it is believed to bring about luck, protection, honor, etc. They are displayed in pairs on walls with the inner edge facing each other. There is a taboo, however--no one is to be photographed standing in-between them as this would somehow cause the death of that person within a year. I have been assured by a senior practitioner of Kejawen the truth of this, as he had witnessed this himself. Why this occurs is not known for certain, we might shrug it off as superstition, coincidence or synchronicity but behind every phenomenon cosmic laws and intelligences are at work; we just need to discover what those laws are and the mind-set of those metaphysical intelligences directing those laws to know the reason for the anomaly. " Pass the salt please .