Kris from Yogyakarta

A. G. Maisey · 3rd August 2011, 01:30 AM

GIO, I cannot read hanacaraka (Javanese script), and the letters within the coat of arms of the Karaton Ngayogyakarta are somewhat stylised, but even so, I think that we will find that these leters are "Hb", standing for "Hamengkubuwana", the common abbreviation for the title of the Sultan of Jogja:-

Sampeyan Dalem Ingkang Sinuwun Kanjeng Hamengku Buwono Senapati ing Ngalaga , Abdurrahman Sayidin Panatagama Kalifatullah.

One thing is absolutely certain:- these letters are not any form of Arabic script, they are Javanese script, and they do not read as "Allah".

PenangsangII · 3rd August 2011, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

GIO, I cannot read hanacaraka (Javanese script), and the letters within the coat of arms of the Karaton Ngayogyakarta are somewhat stylised, but even so, I think that we will find that these leters are "Hb", standing for "Hamengkubuwana", the common abbreviation for the title of the Sultan of Jogja:-

Sampeyan Dalem Ingkang Sinuwun Kanjeng Hamengku Buwono Senapati ing Ngalaga , Abdurrahman Sayidin Panatagama Kalifatullah.

One thing is absolutely certain:- these letters are not any form of Arabic script, they are Javanese script, and they do not read as "Allah".

Yes, those are Javanese aksara.

GIO · 3rd August 2011, 11:19 AM

Jean, you convinced me.
I think I have understood the reason of the confusion created by the interpretation of the monogram.
If you examine the writing of Allah in islamic, you will certainly notice that the monogram on the pendok is very similar, but the letters are written in the correct sequence and in reverse sequence. If you show it to a person who knows Arabic only, he will be oriented to read what the monogram looks like to him. To have a more clear idea please look at the writing of the 99 names of Allah in Wikipedia.

Jean · 3rd August 2011, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

If you examine the writing of Allah in islamic, you will certainly notice that the monogram on the pendok is very similar, but the letters are written in the correct sequence and in reverse sequence.

Hello Gio,
If you look at the coat of arms upside down, the writing looks a little bit like Allah indeed but an arabic language teacher should not confuse it.

Best regards
Jean

Marcokeris · 3rd August 2011, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

Jean, you convinced me.
I think I have understood the reason of the confusion created by the interpretation of the monogram.
If you examine the writing of Allah in islamic, you will certainly notice that the monogram on the pendok is very similar, but the letters are written in the correct sequence and in reverse sequence. If you show it to a person who knows Arabic only, he will be oriented to read what the monogram looks like to him. To have a more clear idea please look at the writing of the 99 names of Allah in Wikipedia.

Hallo Gio
About the name look this post:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3831

Marcokeris · 3rd August 2011, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Hallo Gio
About the name look this post:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3831

Hallo Gio
About the name look this post:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3831
PS: sorry all

, about the wood is not timoho but another kind of wood but i don't remember the name

A. G. Maisey · 3rd August 2011, 03:23 PM

Thank you Penangsang.

You have given a very good example of why I have such an ingrained dislike of what I think of as "The Name Game".

I saw this pamor for the first time in about 1974. I saw it in Solo, and I asked an antiques dealer --- who was later to become a very famous Mpu Keris --- what the pamor was called. I was told "banyu tetes".

Until I read your name of "wahyu temurun", I had never heard a different name used for this pamor.

It is interesting to look at what these names mean.

"banyu tetes" means dripping water

"tirto tumetes" means water that drips continuously, but it is rather peculiar Javanese, because we have a mix of the the literary form in "tirto" and common Javanese (ngoko) in "tumetes"

"banyu tumetes" is better and also means water that drips continuously, but uses compatible forms of language

So, we have names that carry the sense of dripping water

Then we have "wahyu temurun" :- "wahyu" is a sign from heaven, usually in the form of a falling star, that indicates somebody to fill a high position, such as a king or a chief; "temurun", correctly this should be "tumurun", but Javanese is a non-standardised language, so its acceptable for spellings to migrate around a bit, possibly "temurun" is the Indonesian or Malay form, in any case "tumurun" means inheritance, it comes from the word "turun" to descend through a blood line, or it can also mean a descendant.

Now here is the interesting thing:- I've been speaking of Javanese meanings, and in Javanese the root word "turun" is a genealogical indicator, and "wahyu" is only understood as a sign from heaven, however, in Indonesian, and possibly Malay (?) "turun" has the much wider meaning of to go down or descend, and in many different senses, while the word "wahyu" can---depending on the way in which it is used--- can mean a mystical power.

So, "wahyu tumurun":- "an inherited mystical power" ? to me this sounds very, very much like the invention of a keris salesman, it certainly does not sound much like the usual naturalistic names for Javanese pamor, and it is rather peculiar language in any case.But you must admit, its much more catchy than plain old dripping water.

It is an unfortunate fact of keris life in the keris lexicon that names do get invented for things and these names then come into general usage with no true foundation in keris tradition.

I've told the following story before, but I believe it is worth repetition.

Many years ago I was in a warung in Triwindu and runner from Madura came in with some keris to sell to the dealer who owned the warung. Amongst these keris was one with a new pamor that I had not previously seen. I asked the name of the pamor and I was told it was a new pamor that did not yet have a name.I bought this keris, and then it was suggested to me that I should give the pamor a name. So I did. I named it "tirto tejo".

Next time I came back to Solo I was in a different dealer's warung, and low and behold, there were a number of keris with the same pamor as the one I had bought the previous year, and had named "tirto tejo". I asked another customer if he knew what the name of this pamor was:- "Oh yes, that's tirto tejo". I did not have the heart to tell him that it had been named tirto tejo by a bule only 12 months previously.

From this I learnt that when a name is given for a pamor, or a dhapur, or anything at all to do with keris, that name has very little value unless it is tied to a time and place and preferably a person.

Edit
I have now had the opportunity to check a dictionary and have found that the spelling "temurun" is indeed the Indonesian spelling. Not only is it the way in which this word is spelt in Indonesian, but in Indonesian the word carries a wide range of meanings.

To me, this is conclusive proof that "wahyu temurun" is not a pamor name rooted in Javanese keris tradition, rather, it is a modern name, as I have already suggested, perhaps invented for commercial purposes.

PenangsangII · 4th August 2011, 03:30 AM

Thank you Alan for yet another free lesson on kerisology. Yes, I must admit that keris terminolgy has strayed a lot from its originality. And the meaning of originality in keris world, should be from that of empu attached to the kraton. Not from some keris vendors or collectors - and that you had the privilege to to be with the kraton related empu, is the envy of us all.

this is a keris in my collection that I was referring to having pamor called, or rather so-called wahyu temurun or banyu/tirto tumetes.

3rd August 2011, 03:23 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Thank you Penangsang. You have given a very good example of why I have such an ingrained dislike of what I think of as "The Name Game". I saw this pamor for the first time in about 1974. I saw it in Solo, and I asked an antiques dealer --- who was later to become a very famous Mpu Keris --- what the pamor was called. I was told "banyu tetes". Until I read your name of "wahyu temurun", I had never heard a different name used for this pamor. It is interesting to look at what these names mean. "banyu tetes" means dripping water "tirto tumetes" means water that drips continuously, but it is rather peculiar Javanese, because we have a mix of the the literary form in "tirto" and common Javanese (ngoko) in "tumetes" "banyu tumetes" is better and also means water that drips continuously, but uses compatible forms of language So, we have names that carry the sense of dripping water Then we have "wahyu temurun" :- "wahyu" is a sign from heaven, usually in the form of a falling star, that indicates somebody to fill a high position, such as a king or a chief; "temurun", correctly this should be "tumurun", but Javanese is a non-standardised language, so its acceptable for spellings to migrate around a bit, possibly "temurun" is the Indonesian or Malay form, in any case "tumurun" means inheritance, it comes from the word "turun" to descend through a blood line, or it can also mean a descendant. Now here is the interesting thing:- I've been speaking of Javanese meanings, and in Javanese the root word "turun" is a genealogical indicator, and "wahyu" is only understood as a sign from heaven, however, in Indonesian, and possibly Malay (?) "turun" has the much wider meaning of to go down or descend, and in many different senses, while the word "wahyu" can---depending on the way in which it is used--- can mean a mystical power. So, "wahyu tumurun":- "an inherited mystical power" ? to me this sounds very, very much like the invention of a keris salesman, it certainly does not sound much like the usual naturalistic names for Javanese pamor, and it is rather peculiar language in any case.But you must admit, its much more catchy than plain old dripping water. It is an unfortunate fact of keris life in the keris lexicon that names do get invented for things and these names then come into general usage with no true foundation in keris tradition. I've told the following story before, but I believe it is worth repetition. Many years ago I was in a warung in Triwindu and runner from Madura came in with some keris to sell to the dealer who owned the warung. Amongst these keris was one with a new pamor that I had not previously seen. I asked the name of the pamor and I was told it was a new pamor that did not yet have a name.I bought this keris, and then it was suggested to me that I should give the pamor a name. So I did. I named it "tirto tejo". Next time I came back to Solo I was in a different dealer's warung, and low and behold, there were a number of keris with the same pamor as the one I had bought the previous year, and had named "tirto tejo". I asked another customer if he knew what the name of this pamor was:- "Oh yes, that's tirto tejo". I did not have the heart to tell him that it had been named tirto tejo by a bule only 12 months previously. From this I learnt that when a name is given for a pamor, or a dhapur, or anything at all to do with keris, that name has very little value unless it is tied to a time and place and preferably a person. Edit I have now had the opportunity to check a dictionary and have found that the spelling "temurun" is indeed the Indonesian spelling. Not only is it the way in which this word is spelt in Indonesian, but in Indonesian the word carries a wide range of meanings. To me, this is conclusive proof that "wahyu temurun" is not a pamor name rooted in Javanese keris tradition, rather, it is a modern name, as I have already suggested, perhaps invented for commercial purposes. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 3rd August 2011 at 11:53 PM. Reason: clarification

4th August 2011, 03:30 AM	#8
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Thank you Alan for yet another free lesson on kerisology. Yes, I must admit that keris terminolgy has strayed a lot from its originality. And the meaning of originality in keris world, should be from that of empu attached to the kraton. Not from some keris vendors or collectors - and that you had the privilege to to be with the kraton related empu, is the envy of us all. this is a keris in my collection that I was referring to having pamor called, or rather so-called wahyu temurun or banyu/tirto tumetes. Attached Images

3rd August 2011, 01:30 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	GIO, I cannot read hanacaraka (Javanese script), and the letters within the coat of arms of the Karaton Ngayogyakarta are somewhat stylised, but even so, I think that we will find that these leters are "Hb", standing for "Hamengkubuwana", the common abbreviation for the title of the Sultan of Jogja:- Sampeyan Dalem Ingkang Sinuwun Kanjeng Hamengku Buwono Senapati ing Ngalaga , Abdurrahman Sayidin Panatagama Kalifatullah. One thing is absolutely certain:- these letters are not any form of Arabic script, they are Javanese script, and they do not read as "Allah".

3rd August 2011, 11:19 AM	#3
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Jean, you convinced me. I think I have understood the reason of the confusion created by the interpretation of the monogram. If you examine the writing of Allah in islamic, you will certainly notice that the monogram on the pendok is very similar, but the letters are written in the correct sequence and in reverse sequence. If you show it to a person who knows Arabic only, he will be oriented to read what the monogram looks like to him. To have a more clear idea please look at the writing of the 99 names of Allah in Wikipedia.