New keris

Alam Shah · 24th July 2005, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy

Nice keris, Rick. Mine also comes from Madura, according to the info I received from the seller.
But I also like the older ones. I don't mind if the blade is not 100 %. That's part of their beauty. Dapur Carita Luk sebelas ?

...Or what's left of it. It had seen better days.
It takes a lot of ... to appreciate a piece like that.
Well, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder...

Alam Shah · 24th July 2005, 06:10 PM

I have a madura piece too. Click here to have a look.
Estimated to be around late 20th century. Simple piece.

Rick · 24th July 2005, 08:15 PM

Very nice example Alam Shah !
Beautiful!

Pamor Uler Lulut , the beautiful worm .

The ukiran is a rare form but it is traditional to Jawa and was a type favored by a legendary folk hero IIRC . The style is called Imam Bonjol .
I believe you can see an example of this ukiran in the Mangkunegaraan Musium collection in Solo . Also , if you notice the wrongko is faceted rather than the usual smooth curved sides .

John · 25th July 2005, 04:59 AM

Although not quite a fan of new kerises (blades) collectionwise, I immensely enjoy seeing some of the beautiful craftsmanship/aesthetics of the new works.

I thought the "shades" of the uler lulut pamor of Rick's blade skillfully executed giving the 3 dimensional look and I guess more profoundly so at certain angles.

All beautiful pieces in their own right. However Freddy's blade appears to have an overwhelming spread of black stain on it's surface (or is it the photos?). I've had some new Madurese pieces like this stained by black motor oil which may not be the case here.

Boedhi Adhitya · 25th July 2005, 07:36 AM

Gusen (java)word come from "gusi" (indonesian/java/malay?), which means the teeth's gum. Gusen might means "looks like the teeth's gum". In the keris terminology, it means the beveled edges. the bevel might looks like the gum, if we look the sharp edge as the tooth

I do agree with Pak Cik Alam shah that the dhapur is Jalak Ruwuh, or some people in Java might spell, Jalak Nguwuh. Determining the dhapur sometimes a little bit tricky, because the ricikan (details) of some kerises might not exactly the same as the written ones on the book. In this case, we may choose the closest-related dhapur possible, which has the same ricikan/details most.

About the old blade attached, IMHO, it has 13 luks. The dhapur might be Sengkelat. It was a good one, and I believe, it is still a good one for you, Freddy. Counting luks might be frustrating on heavily corroded blades. Some keris experts in Java propose counting luks on it's concave sides, not the convex, hilly sides. That is, if you hold a keris (which has luks certainly

) on your right hand, and the sirah cecak and gandik side facing left side, you might start counting the concave-sides luks with your left thumb and index finger. The first luk is just upside of the gandik/sekar kacang on the left side of the blade, counted with your left thumb, and the second luk is counted with your left index finger. Continue counting by alternating the thumb and index finger through the whole length of the blade, on the concave sides. Now come the important part : The luk MUST ended on your thumb, if the keris' luk is still intact. That means, the tip/point of the blade MUST be directing to your left side. If not, the point of the blade might has gone because of corrosion or altered by someone. In case of corrosion, you may add 1 to make the luk odd (luk's counting always odd). I found this method much more easier and more reliable, especially if we count the luks on the spear heads and heavily corroded kerises.
In the case of the old blade attached, if we count the luk using this method, the luk might ended on your left index finger, and the point turn to the right side. The counting is 12, so if we add 1, the blade was 13 luks. Since corrosion may not change the dhapur, then the blade still called as having 13 luks, while in fact, it has 12 luks.

wish I add something to this forum (not confusion certainly

)

Alam Shah · 25th July 2005, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The ukiran is a rare form but it is traditional to Jawa and was a type favored by a legendary folk hero IIRC . The style is called Imam Bonjol .
I believe you can see an example of this ukiran in the Mangkunegaraan Musium collection in Solo . Also , if you notice the wrongko is faceted rather than the usual smooth curved sides .

Ah! now i remember where I've seen it.
From the picture of Ali Basah Sentot Prawiradirja, one of the leading warrior of Pageran Diponegoro. He was wearing a keris whose hulu and warangka is similar to yours.

The ukiran is built up of 5 balls. Pageran Diponegoro, son of Hamengko Buwono the third, has been depicted on several engravings carrying a keris with a hilt resembling yours.

Freddy · 25th July 2005, 07:59 PM

Thank you for the elaborate explanation, Boedhi Adhitya.

I counted the luk on the old blade in the way you described, and I ended with 12 luk (at my index finger). So you are probably right in stating that the blade used to have 13 luk.

Alam Shah, I appreciate your comment on my kerises, but I wonder why you are so negative about the old keris blade. True, it's not in perfect condition. But I feel that this old blade still has something. I don't know what attracted me to it.
By repeatly washing the blade, it's a natural process that the blade becomes thin and starts losing some 'ricikan', don't you think so ? People in Indonesia, cherish their old family kerises. I've seen pictures of kerises in the same condition, which were and are respected for their age.

Rick · 25th July 2005, 08:55 PM

Keris collecting seems to be a very subjective activity .
Freddy I have an old example that is in the same general condition as yours along with several other old examples all collected from trusted sources .
I enjoy them immensely for their antiquity and the fact that they were used within their culture .

What really floats my boat in keris collecting is seeing well executed , unusual and complete pamor patterns and I find for the most part that they can only be affordably found in new work .

rahman · 26th July 2005, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Ah! now i remember where I've seen it.
From the picture of Ali Basah Sentot Prawiradirja, one of the leading warrior of Pageran Diponegoro. He was wearing a keris whose hulu and warangka is similar to yours.

The ukiran is built up of 5 balls. Pageran Diponegoro, son of Hamengko Buwono the third, has been depicted on several engravings carrying a keris with a hilt resembling yours.

Yes, but Pangeran Diponegoro's keris was quite small (keris pandak) that he wears tucked into his belt. This one's full size -- and a real beauty!

Alam Shah · 26th July 2005, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy

Alam Shah, I appreciate your comment on my kerises, but I wonder why you are so negative about the old keris blade. True, it's not in perfect condition. But I feel that this old blade still has something. I don't know what attracted me to it.
By repeatly washing the blade, it's a natural process that the blade becomes thin and starts losing some 'ricikan', don't you think so ? People in Indonesia, cherish their old family kerises. I've seen pictures of kerises in the same condition, which were and are respected for their age.

Negative? On the contrary, I think it's nice that you could appreciate such antiquity. (Not many people can.)

As Rick said "Keris collecting seems to be a very subjective activity."
Many people collect for different reasons.

I do have an old piece which I had grown attached to over the years.
This piece, I had kept for more than a decade (16 years.) Click here to see.

Sorry, if I didn't make myself clear. I have handled pieces in worse state than yours. Family heirlooms, almost to a point of disintegration and some are so fragile that if you exert a little force, it tends to crumble.

I agree with your comments above. Older blade have this 'x' factor which can draw one's attention.

Freddy · 26th July 2005, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

As Rick said "Keris collecting seems to be a very subjective activity."
Many people collect for different reasons.

I agree with your comments above. Older blade have this 'x' factor which can draw one's attention.

You are right, keris collecting, and in fact all collecting, is very subjective. I can appreciate the workmanship in a new keris. Sometimes I wonder how it's possible to 'create' the intricate pamor motifs.

But still, with an old keris I feel that there's a story behind the piece. That would be the so-called 'X' factor, no ? Unfortunately, the story is mostly lost as the keris goes from hand to hand before it comes in our possession. And this is especially true for old kerises in Western collections.

24th July 2005, 06:10 PM	#2
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	My Maduran piece. I have a madura piece too. Click here to have a look. Estimated to be around late 20th century. Simple piece.

24th July 2005, 08:15 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Very nice example Alam Shah ! Beautiful! Pamor Uler Lulut , the beautiful worm . The ukiran is a rare form but it is traditional to Jawa and was a type favored by a legendary folk hero IIRC . The style is called Imam Bonjol . I believe you can see an example of this ukiran in the Mangkunegaraan Musium collection in Solo . Also , if you notice the wrongko is faceted rather than the usual smooth curved sides . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 25th July 2005 at 02:11 AM. Reason: More info added

25th July 2005, 04:59 AM	#4
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Although not quite a fan of new kerises (blades) collectionwise, I immensely enjoy seeing some of the beautiful craftsmanship/aesthetics of the new works. I thought the "shades" of the uler lulut pamor of Rick's blade skillfully executed giving the 3 dimensional look and I guess more profoundly so at certain angles. All beautiful pieces in their own right. However Freddy's blade appears to have an overwhelming spread of black stain on it's surface (or is it the photos?). I've had some new Madurese pieces like this stained by black motor oil which may not be the case here.

25th July 2005, 07:36 AM	#5
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	Gusen (java)word come from "gusi" (indonesian/java/malay?), which means the teeth's gum. Gusen might means "looks like the teeth's gum". In the keris terminology, it means the beveled edges. the bevel might looks like the gum, if we look the sharp edge as the tooth I do agree with Pak Cik Alam shah that the dhapur is Jalak Ruwuh, or some people in Java might spell, Jalak Nguwuh. Determining the dhapur sometimes a little bit tricky, because the ricikan (details) of some kerises might not exactly the same as the written ones on the book. In this case, we may choose the closest-related dhapur possible, which has the same ricikan/details most. About the old blade attached, IMHO, it has 13 luks. The dhapur might be Sengkelat. It was a good one, and I believe, it is still a good one for you, Freddy. Counting luks might be frustrating on heavily corroded blades. Some keris experts in Java propose counting luks on it's concave sides, not the convex, hilly sides. That is, if you hold a keris (which has luks certainly ) on your right hand, and the sirah cecak and gandik side facing left side, you might start counting the concave-sides luks with your left thumb and index finger. The first luk is just upside of the gandik/sekar kacang on the left side of the blade, counted with your left thumb, and the second luk is counted with your left index finger. Continue counting by alternating the thumb and index finger through the whole length of the blade, on the concave sides. Now come the important part : The luk MUST ended on your thumb, if the keris' luk is still intact. That means, the tip/point of the blade MUST be directing to your left side. If not, the point of the blade might has gone because of corrosion or altered by someone. In case of corrosion, you may add 1 to make the luk odd (luk's counting always odd). I found this method much more easier and more reliable, especially if we count the luks on the spear heads and heavily corroded kerises. In the case of the old blade attached, if we count the luk using this method, the luk might ended on your left index finger, and the point turn to the right side. The counting is 12, so if we add 1, the blade was 13 luks. Since corrosion may not change the dhapur, then the blade still called as having 13 luks, while in fact, it has 12 luks. wish I add something to this forum (not confusion certainly )

25th July 2005, 07:59 PM	#7
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Thank you for the elaborate explanation, Boedhi Adhitya. I counted the luk on the old blade in the way you described, and I ended with 12 luk (at my index finger). So you are probably right in stating that the blade used to have 13 luk. Alam Shah, I appreciate your comment on my kerises, but I wonder why you are so negative about the old keris blade. True, it's not in perfect condition. But I feel that this old blade still has something. I don't know what attracted me to it. By repeatly washing the blade, it's a natural process that the blade becomes thin and starts losing some 'ricikan', don't you think so ? People in Indonesia, cherish their old family kerises. I've seen pictures of kerises in the same condition, which were and are respected for their age.

25th July 2005, 08:55 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Keris collecting seems to be a very subjective activity . Freddy I have an old example that is in the same general condition as yours along with several other old examples all collected from trusted sources . I enjoy them immensely for their antiquity and the fact that they were used within their culture . What really floats my boat in keris collecting is seeing well executed , unusual and complete pamor patterns and I find for the most part that they can only be affordably found in new work .