mysterious marking on kaskara

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2011, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuirassier

Hi Guys
OK, thank you; I have trouble reconciling such a primitively made blade to a supposedly fine Solingen maker, even in the name of making a buck, but I accept it. I guess Wilkinson ended up making razor blades and garden shears while what remains of the Solingen blade industry makes cutlery, so I guess Kull making melon choppers on a blazing forge because the locals in the Sudan wanted to waste their money that way should come as no surprise. Shame, I was hoping this was an old horn of Africa made blade, or better of course.

On a more positive note, it would appear I have actually managed to buy a scarce to rare 1000 Blademaker Marks book, which I presume is what you showed excerpts of Iain?
Cheers
Mark

Mark, welcome to weapons collecting 101

but truly sorry for the disappointment. It is an unfortunate truth that sometimes seriously studying a subject reveals that reality is more often than not, far more mundane than the folkore or presumptions most of us always hope will be found to be true.
Personally, I have studied weapons most of my life, and while often disappointed when the truth on a piece revealed far more mundane provenance than I had hoped....I have learned that with the truth, there was usually far more fascinating history beyond the embellished lore I had been led to believe.
Solingen was a huge industrial machine, and behind its success was of course commerce. The makers were there to earn a living, and of course they were masterfully skilled, but when fulfilling contracts, they produced in volume for effect.

For me, I have found the history of the tribes in the Sudan and Saharan regions and the weapons they use to this day fascinating, including the imports and commerce of blades from many sources. The markings and symbolisms on the blades have intriguing history into earlier times in swordmaking in Spain, Germany, Italy and England which have taken on new interpretations in native parlance. This was certainly not about misguided local tribesmen wasting money on cheap knockoff blades, this is about colonialism and building economies in tribal cultures, and the development and history around these times.

This is all a learning experience and truly adventures in history, the way it really happened, far from books. movies and popular folklore, and the weapons are our guides.

As you can see, when it comes to markings, this area is probably one of the least accurately documented topics in weapons collecting alongside the study of symbolism and decorative motif. The markings shown by Iain are from "Geschicte der Solingen Klingenindustrie" by Rudolf Cronau, Stuttgart, 1885, which has been reprinted.
Rather than trying to locate this it is better to get the paperback "German Swords and Swordmakers" by Richard Bezdek, which includes considerable detail on markings as well.

The book you have on order by Lenciewicz is actually a compendium of markings and thier presumed country of origin with approximate century. These are simply compiled presumably from actual examples, however no detail is given nor any information referenced but still provides interesting illustrations in line drawings. There are no weapons illustrated nor any text discussing any markings, and the book is still useful as a guide. I have a copy but use it mostly as a balance while using the others as primary sources when looking into markings.

In my opinion one of the best references to acquire is "European Arms and Armour" the Wallace Collection, by Sir. James Mann, London, 1962. in two volumes. It is a full catalogue with photo illustrations and line drawings of markings found along with detailed decriptions of the weapons and often notes on the marks. There are pages of markings at the back for quick reference and cross reference to the page and weapon they appear on.

Also you might see our thread on makers trademarks here which has some interesting information and discussions. While as I have noted there is a true dearth of material focused on weapons markings, you will see that the thread continues to escalate in views (now approaching 23,000!) clearly showing the profound interest in finding information on markings is out there.

Your sword is far from being a primatively forged hunk of steel of little worth, but a blade fabricated in industrial workshops bearing the marks of that maker and which were deeply imbued in meaning to the tribesmen who kept these swords with great pride and tradition.

I just wanted to put my perspective here as in the same way those tribesmen see these swords, even to this day,I see them in much the same sense. I personally treasure and admire these weapons and the cultures in which they have been used and maintained, in all degrees and scope from the munitions grade weapons of the rank and file to the beautifully crafted weapons in museums and fine collections.

All very best regards,
Jim

Iain · 31st July 2011, 08:45 PM

What Jim said.

Can't honestly word it better myself. I am usually disappointed with every new piece I get - that typically goes away after a few days, but things are hardly ever what we would hope for in arms collecting. Part of the game is learning to appreciate an example objectively - something I struggle with fairly often.

I would still love to see more photography of the hilt of your sword - it is quite unique and well worth additional study. I am quite intrigued by the pommel and even the grip shape has such a difference with the typical Sudanese cylindrical grips that part of me wonders if it was redone by a Western collector or owner.

David R · 16th February 2012, 03:29 PM

Back in the days before the Chinese started making replicas a lot of kaskara and takouba were revamped by reenactors into "medieval" swords, and for swords used in cutting demonstrations this still goes on. I have two such myself, originaly a kaskara and a takouba, the one with an old (17thC) Solingen type blade and the other native made. Both came to me as unmounted blades, but I have seen complete swords reconfigured even quite recently.
I am now looking to retro fit my two, and another unmounted takouba blade I have back into their African form.
Myself, I am more than happy to have a trade blade in an ethnic sword ..Interestingly Ian Bottomly at the Royal Armouries tells me that the starting point for some Western collections was native blades from all over the world brought back to use as models for trade blade production. Thus producing what the market already wanted, rather than trying to sell the locals an unfamiliar item.
There is also the wonderfull post by S.Al-Anizi about the Bazaar in Riyadh, in which a respected local dealer claims that European blades are second only to the best Indian wootz.

Iain · 16th February 2012, 06:08 PM

Hi David,

I for one would be interested to see photos of the Solingen blade.

All the best,
Iain

David R · 16th February 2012, 11:01 PM

Hi Ian, nothin' special about the blade, 870 ml. long 41ml. wide, flat lentoid with 3 narrow fullers..one long two short. Two half moons with faces each side of the blade. A pretty typical Kaskara blade. I don't have a working camera at present but will try to get pics posted as soon as. I bought it some years ago from Dave Edge of the Wallace Collection in a private sale, and he gave the provinance and date.

31st July 2011, 08:45 PM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	What Jim said. Can't honestly word it better myself. I am usually disappointed with every new piece I get - that typically goes away after a few days, but things are hardly ever what we would hope for in arms collecting. Part of the game is learning to appreciate an example objectively - something I struggle with fairly often. I would still love to see more photography of the hilt of your sword - it is quite unique and well worth additional study. I am quite intrigued by the pommel and even the grip shape has such a difference with the typical Sudanese cylindrical grips that part of me wonders if it was redone by a Western collector or owner.

16th February 2012, 03:29 PM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	Back in the days before the Chinese started making replicas a lot of kaskara and takouba were revamped by reenactors into "medieval" swords, and for swords used in cutting demonstrations this still goes on. I have two such myself, originaly a kaskara and a takouba, the one with an old (17thC) Solingen type blade and the other native made. Both came to me as unmounted blades, but I have seen complete swords reconfigured even quite recently. I am now looking to retro fit my two, and another unmounted takouba blade I have back into their African form. Myself, I am more than happy to have a trade blade in an ethnic sword ..Interestingly Ian Bottomly at the Royal Armouries tells me that the starting point for some Western collections was native blades from all over the world brought back to use as models for trade blade production. Thus producing what the market already wanted, rather than trying to sell the locals an unfamiliar item. There is also the wonderfull post by S.Al-Anizi about the Bazaar in Riyadh, in which a respected local dealer claims that European blades are second only to the best Indian wootz.

16th February 2012, 06:08 PM	#4
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi David, I for one would be interested to see photos of the Solingen blade. All the best, Iain

16th February 2012, 11:01 PM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	Hi Ian, nothin' special about the blade, 870 ml. long 41ml. wide, flat lentoid with 3 narrow fullers..one long two short. Two half moons with faces each side of the blade. A pretty typical Kaskara blade. I don't have a working camera at present but will try to get pics posted as soon as. I bought it some years ago from Dave Edge of the Wallace Collection in a private sale, and he gave the provinance and date.