Islamic Crossbow?

[B.I]

hi aqtai,
i have found a copy of this book and will look into it. do you remember the nature of the image, ie were they modern depictions, or period manuscripts?
rick,
unfortunately, any archeology evidence from crusader sites may yield crossbow bolts, but from which side? i know the europeans had crossbows, and i have no doubt the muslims may have used captured weapons, if they were an 'advanced' technology that they deemed useful.
however, i am after a crossbow definately made by a muslim hand. the examples in existence are of complete form, but the speculation and debate is whether they were made by muslims, of just a variation of the german design.
still much appreciated and please carry on

[Aqtai]

Originally Posted by B.I

hi aqtai,
i have found a copy of this book and will look into it. do you remember the nature of the image, ie were they modern depictions, or period manuscripts?
rick,
unfortunately, any archeology evidence from crusader sites may yield crossbow bolts, but from which side? i know the europeans had crossbows, and i have no doubt the muslims may have used captured weapons, if they were an 'advanced' technology that they deemed useful.
however, i am after a crossbow definately made by a muslim hand. the examples in existence are of complete form, but the speculation and debate is whether they were made by muslims, of just a variation of the german design.
still much appreciated and please carry on

I no longer have this book, but I do vaguely remember a picture of a mamluk with a crossbow. The picture, if it exists, is a late 14th century Egyptian (?) miniature painting.

[B.I]

thanks aqtai,
if this is the case then this is exactly what i am looking for. i will chase this book down and let you know.

[Marc]

Ok, I’m a bit short of time, so, I apologize for “sniping” like this, but I thought that some of these things might be of interest…


In Spain there's documentation about the use of the crossbow by Moorish forces from at least the 13th c.
From that age, in the Cantigas de Alfonso X can be seen contingents of Muslims accompanied by crossbowmen, especially in sieges. It can be argumented, tough, that at that time in Spain (to make a short story of it) wasn't unusual to hire groups of armed men to join one's armies, regardless of their faith, as long as they were going to be reliable. So, Moorish troops could be found in Christian armies, and Christian men in Moorish armies. At that period, also, one would have a hard time to distinguish Moorish from Christian warriors by their panoply, defensive or offensive, alone. Especially in border territories. Sorry, I haven't been able to find online images from the Cantigas that showed the crossbows. But I think it’s something worth mentioning.
From a bit later, we have the frescoes found in the Torre de las Damas (“Tower of the Dames”, in the Partal House, The Alhambra, Granada), from about 1350, and where an army in the march is represented and mounted crossbowmen in Moorish outfit can be seen.

As told by himself, at 1238, while besieging the city of València, then in Muslim hands, King Jaume I of Aragon is hit in the forehead by a crossbow bolt that goes through his helmet and wounds him. The King grabs the bolt, pulls it out, rises in his stirrups and shouts angrily to the city walls in front of his astonished court. Then goes back to his army’s camp, rides around a bit, wiping the blood that falls from his face, to let his men know for sure he’s ok (morale being important in these feudal armies), and then retires to his tent where he spends some days with an horrible headache.

At the other side of the Mediterranean, we have a treatise from 1180 written by Al-Tartusi (I think that in Alexandria) for Saladdin, where, among other weapons and engines, crossbows (yes, the hand-held variety) are discussed. This was, for example, prior to the use of the stirrup, IIRC.

On the other hand, at 1199, King Richard the Lionheart is killed at Acre by a crossbow bolt.

There’s a Nasrid crossbow (sorry, I don’t know the exact attributed date, but the Nasrid dynasty spans from 1231 to 1492) in Granada’s Archaeological Museum (a couple of references here and here )


Some information, including iconography (although quite badly reproduced), about the use of the crossbow in Al-Andalus and the bit about the Cantigas can be found in the book:
SOLER DEL CAMPO, Álvaro. "La evolución del armamento medieval en el reino Castellan-Leonés y Al-Andalus (Siglos XII-XIV)", Ed. by Servicio de Publicaciones del E.M.E, Madrid, 1993.
It's out of stock, right now, but it can be found via interlibrary loan.

More interesting, being in English, would be:
NICOLLE, David. "Early Islamic Arms and Armour", Ed. by Instituto de Estudios sobre armas antiguas, Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas, Madrid(?), 1976. Also out of stock, I’m afraid.

Finally, and knowing you have access to someone who can read Spanish, I think you might find this reference of the utmost interest…


I hope this helps, somewhat. Again, sorry for not elaborating.

[B.I]

marc,
please feel free to 'snipe' any time you want
also, if this is the casual information you can provide when in a hurry, then i look forward to you sitting down with time!
your information was very helpful, and i had always suspected the information needed would come from a spanish source, due to the heavy involvement with moors and a cross-culture that was never more prevelant than in the 'medieval' period.
i shall get the link you sent translated and hope it holds some good information. you hint that it does, but my spanish doesnt get much further than ordering a couple of beers in a bar.
also, i will try and search this source -

SOLER DEL CAMPO, Álvaro. "La evolución del armamento medieval en el reino Castellan-Leonés y Al-Andalus (Siglos XII-XIV)", Ed. by Servicio de Publicaciones del E.M.E, Madrid, 1993.

no matter how poor, any iconography is desperately needed.
the Nasrid crossbow sounds intriguing, is there any images available. the two links you sent are in spanish, but do these sites hold images?
again, i can get the text sifted through.
also, the frescoes in Torre de las Damas - are there any publications that show these.

please expand when you have time. i will not be able to get the texts translated for another week, so expect some questions from me.

King Jaume I of Aragon sounds like a tough guy. a mere headache from a headshot! i wonder if that goes into mythology and fantasy. i remember the story of the sikh warrior who continued fighting after his head was cut off!!
if not, i think charlton heston ought to come out of retirement, put down his rifle and don a spanish sword for there is another epic to be made

thanks again.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Elgood: Firearms of The Islamic World, page 115, you will see a miniature with at least two crossbows – dated c. 1500. Too late for you I guess.

Syed Zafar Haider: Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India, page 186. Two drawings of crossbows, one from Egypt 11th century, in Museum of Islamic Art, Cairo and one from a miniature shown in ‘Zafar Nama’ c. 1467. In the text about crossbows he writes:

Takhsh.
A rare example of a crossbow is illustrated in the late fifteenth century Persian manuscript Zafar Nama. Under the nomenclature takhsh it is further mentioned in the manuscript as a part of the arsenal used by the Muslim Indian armies fighting against Timur.

A drawing in ink from the eleventh century, Egypt proves the presence of this weapon with the Islamic armies much before it became popular in Europe. Ease and effectiveness with which the composite bow was used prevented the crossbow from gaining favour with the Islamic armies. It is for this reason that no example of such a weapon has reached us from the past.

The crossbow from Egypt is a multipurpose weapon, a spear and a crossbow. Maybe they have other crossbows at the museum, but anyway it shows, that they knew the crossbow very early.


Jens

[B.I]

thank you jens,
could you please post the two drawings from haiders book. i can try and trace the manuscript here and find the reference.
attached is a persian inlaid silver bottle from the 13thC, in the freer gallery of art.
this is a good start but much more is still needed and much appreciated, as ever.

[B.I]

jens,
the image from firearms of the islamic world is great. although later, it clearly shows the crossbow being used at a developed stage, by someone that could only have been persian. it definately helps.
this shows that it was definately used and is a good introduction to begin the process of successive and comparative investigation.

[Aqtai]

I got David Nicolle's "Acre 1291" last week, I was flicking through it today, when I found this:



According to the caption it is a "Mamluk enamelled glass flask" in the British Museum.

The same book also had this picture:
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/607...anjaniq8be.jpg

[Marc]

Brian,
Just trying to drown you with work, you know...

About the books:
If you manage to take a peek to a facsimile copy of the Cantigas de Alfonso X (the tome in the Monasterio de El Escorial's library, IIRC) you'll find the images (Cantigas number 28, 99 and 187, crossbows in Muslim hands, there may be more). On the other hand, Soler del Campo's book may be easier to get...
The frescoes in the Torre de las Damas in the Alhambra are also shown there, though in the form of a drawing. Said drawing was done long ago by Gomez-Moreno, an Spanish arabist and archaeologist, and I seem to remember (might be wrong, here, but it can be checked) that the original frescoes are almost illegible now. They are also found in Nicolle's book. By the way, given its date of publication, I'm sure that this information must be found in other, later books by Dr. Nicolle dealing with the same subject (like "Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era", maybe, and some others) that might be easier to find.

Sorry, not images of the Nasrid crossbow that I can be sure of. The sites have information about it, one is a reference for a monography and the other is about an old exhibition that displayed it and that probably have a catalogue somewhere.

Oh, and the incident in front of Valencia is told by the King himself in his Crònica ("Chronicle"), that is quite faithful. It's not that strange, if one analyzes the circumstances, the helmet saved him from what it probably was a quite long-distance shot to start with. Besides, Jaume I, called El Conqueridor ("The Conquerer"), was also a formidable man, standing more than 2 m. tall. And he says that he had an horrible headache for several days. Maybe not really the stuff of legends... but a good deal of sheer luck, at least, well, that's for sure.

Oh, and I thought it might be worth mentioning that, IIRC, the Mamluk Sultan Baybars I, who was involved in the coup of 1250 and took later the power in Egypt in 1260 after defeating the Mongols in Ain Jalut, at some point in his career was the commander of the Mamluk units of crossbowmen.

Jens, just a small nitpick, the crossbow was well-established in Europe in the 11th c. There's for example a representation of a crossbowmen in the Beatus of Burgo de Osma dated in 1086.

P.D.

Originally Posted by B.I

but my spanish doesnt get much further than ordering a couple of beers in a bar.

Well, that's not bad at all, don't let you be led to think us Spaniards use our language for anything less important...

[fernando]

Hi B.I.
The "Cuçalarab" shown in the the aquarel nr. 85 is part of the Moors armament in the 12th century, in the occupied peninsula. It is a modern drawing, to illustrate historical research for a miniature making company. It was just to confirm ( and reconfirm ) that the crossbow, in whatever variation, was used by arabs or muslims much before the VXV century.
But certainly this this isn't what you are looking for. Nor even the attached scanning of an illumination on "Chronicles of England" by Jean Wavrin ( 1498 ).
Certainly you are close from finding what you need.

[Aqtai]

Originally Posted by Marc

...
Oh, and I thought it might be worth mentioning that, IIRC, the Mamluk Sultan Baybars I, who was involved in the coup of 1250 and took later the power in Egypt in 1260 after defeating the Mongols in Ain Jalut, at some point in his career was the commander of the Mamluk units of crossbowmen...

I'm not too sure about that. I think this belief has come about because one of Beybars' titles was El-Bunduqdari. This has often been translated as "the crossbowman" in the belief that bunduq means crossbow. Which is reasonable when you consider that the modern Arabic name for rifle is bunduqiyah. However El-Bunduqiyah is also the Arabic name for Venice and bunduq in Arabic means hazelnut. I have seen suggestions that in Mamluk times the name bunduq was actually used for pellet bows, also reasonable when you consider the size and shape of a pellet.

Beybars had this title because his first master was the emir Aydekin El-Bunduqdar, which translates either as Aydekin the pellet-bow bearer, or Aydekin the crossbow bearer, depending on how you translate bunduq. This title was a court position, and referred to the sultan's attendents. There were also silahdars, sword bearers; tabardars, axe bearers and jukandars, polo-stick bearers. Sultan El-Salih Ayyub later purchased Beybars from Aydekin, which is how he came to be one of the Bahri mamluks.