mysterious marking on kaskara

[Cuirassier]

Thanks for the replies.

Sorry, I do not believe this is an 19th Century Prussian blade, at all, 100% not.

I may not have an 1100 / 1200 Crusader blade, but I absolutely do not have a 19th Century Prussian blade either; the later I can speak with some level of knowledge.

Why would a 19C Prussian blade maker;
a) Traditionally hand forge a blade in the old European style / methods?
b) Copy a bulbous blade from hundreds of years before? Remember, the blade in mine and other similar kaskaras do not have an essential facet of European blades post, what, 17th Century; a forte.
c) Risk being the laughing stock of Prussia / Solingen; the centre of the sword making industry in Europe?

Conjecture.
Someone in the Sudan lands copied the mayfly trademark of Peter Kull, the orb of various earlier European swords, then added their own lion. Then, one day, a sword expert came along and found a few of these blades. "Ah, the mark of Peter Kull. So these other markings must be his too.". I notice I believe that these various marks are stated as being "attributed with" or "connected to" Kull, not known 100% marks of his? Nor would they be in 19th Century Solingen. Prussian makers made fine etched blades, not iron rich traditionally forged lumps with such basic maker marks (mayfly) stamped into them. Prussian blade makers were very proud; this is NOT a 19th Century Prussian blade.

I am not trying to convince myself I have the legend (a Crusader's blade). It most likely is a locally made blade IMHO. The trouble is, if I get the blade carbon dated, I may well get a 19th Century result that some would argue means the blade was made by Kull of Solingen. But, the more I look at the blade, the more I say to myself "If a Solingen maker produced this blade in the mid-19th Century, he would be derided everywhere you look."

Edster
The grip etc. is weird. I think the pommel nut is perhaps copper alloy because a) the coloration and b) the blue oxidation present. I have seen these pommel nuts before from the side (did not look nor see passant lions on the top) but can not remember where - they are quite common I think with these strange ridge protrusions.

The grip / hilt assembly is odd but very, very strong, and I believe period (late 19th Century / early 20th) because of the pommel nut. Why would anyone regrip the sword this way retaining the pommel nut? I mean, if it is one of these rastifications people talk about, where katana blades have been "restored" to crusader period mounts, they would not have kept the pommel nut. Kaskara hilts have a tendency to be frail right? This one is not for sure.

[Jim McDougall]

Jeff, thank you so much, now I recall that blade of yours and in particular the copper inlaid cross and orb, a subject of considerable discussion back then.

After seeing Jeff's blade carrying these same markings but with a blade with different fuller it suggests these very well may be native copies of earlier blade forms and using the Kull marks. It does seem that some native stamps reflected copies of the Solingen markings well established in extant trade blades and particular makers in certain areas adopted a certain consistancy in use of marks groupings that reflected certain symbolic character.

As far as I know, Solingen trade blades, especially in these later times, did not carry copper or brass inlaid markings, but did sometimes have marks of makers or purveyors. It does seem that several types of fullering or channels were typical in native kaskara blades, and Mark's example and Jeff's carry the marks grouping with association to the Kull marks, while being of two of the fuller patterns.

Mark, it should be noted that Solingen was very much an industrial cartel that produced blades of many styles that were intended to certain markets. They were producing rapier blades for Spain and her colonies long after the narrow blade rapier had become obsolete elsewhere. The blades for many different types of sword were continued as dictated by traditions kept in place for periods long after the initial form originally had been supplanted by other influences and forms. This is very much in keeping with 'revival' type weapons in many cultures and the reason why we see anachonistic styles in many native weapons such as Egyptian style features in many African weapons; kopis and machaira style features in Indian and other forms etc.
In Solingen certain blades often carried certain inscriptions that seem to have suggested a 'brand' system for blade types to certain markets, such as 'Andrea Ferara' on the blades destined to Scottish markets; and Sahagun to certain Continental markets.
Solingen and England both procuced antiquated sickle form blades to Abyssinia into to the 1930s for thier shotels, and it does seem that a number of European produced blades of broadsword blades for native markets did come out of Solingen. It is about commerce most of all rather than current styles or fashion.

Ed, I believe that Ali Dinar,who was the last sultan of Darfur, was killed in 1916 by British forces during insurgences at that time, if that is the one you are referring to. I am not sure of others with that name were earlier.

All best regards,
Jim

[Iain]

Mark,

These blades were purely export items. They were a cheap product never intended to showcase the particular skills of the maker. They were made in this style because that is what the Sudanese market wanted.

They are in no way comparable to the military patterns and other items the same makers produced at the time, nor where they ever meant to be.

The markings, as Jim noted, were recognized in the market the blades were intended for.

If your blade has the following configuration - cross and orb at the top of the fuller on side, lion on the other, flies on the base both sides - it matches other blades from the maker.

Attached the confirmation of Peter Kull's use of the three marks.

Also a takouba with the exact same blade, only reprofiled for local tastes.

Of course you have it in hand and if you are convinced it is something else I doubt I can change your mind, but just to let you know why those of us with some long standing interest in takouba and kaskara are rather sure of what you have.

As Jim notes, the possibility of a native copy always exists, but in this case I would be quite ready to believe you've got the genuine, made for export, article.

The pommel is particularly interesting, as the Ethiopians were not adverse to using the occasional kaskara, perhaps the different hilting could indicate some usage outside the usual Sudanese sphere of influence.

All the best,

Iain

[tom hyle]

a few points
First, 19th Solingen makers' marks in my experience were usually struck, not etched, with additional decorations further out the blade etched.
The lion seems etched, the other marks seem struck.
I don't know what is meant by the idea that this is wildly different from Solingen work; I don't see it.
I don't know what is meant that the blade is "bulbous"? Is this a cross sectional reference?
As to the blade with the inlays, if there are pits showing thru from under the inlay they could be from water (etc.) penetrating beneath an incompletely sealed-down inlay, but if the pits are older than the inlay, that means that the depression the inlay is in must have already been there, yes? In any event, this is actually rather difficult to see in the photo.
The perpendicular extensions from the guard are called lagnets (in French/English)
Certainly old European blades that are thin and soft enough (and many are) will vibrate as described. Burton (19th) recomended vibrating a sword in somewhat this manner (by striking the pommel though) to see the centers of vibration and of impact.
Understand that as has been stated European trade blades for these swords were not cast-offs of the European market, but deliberately produced for the African market.
Burton cracked that Solingen seemed determined to arm the entire continent with its steel.
The recieved idea that these were based on European medieval swords seems entirely specious; what I tend to refer to as a "collectors' tale". The people who weild these call themselves Arabs, and these seem clearly descended from and related to Arab swords, including the semi Turkish style guard (it is not hollow to form a ferule like real Turkish and Persian ones, and the upper lagnet is often/usually covered by a ferule or wrapping as seen on modern Arab sabres). Medieval Arab swords were usually straight and double edged.

[Edster]

Jim, I stand corrected on Ali Dinar. Some of his swords are documented, including in the Forum. Got my "Alis" confused. I think it was Mohammad Ali of Egypt who defeated the last Fung king in 1821. I wonder if there are any documented swords from the Fung period.

Best,
Ed

[Cuirassier]

Hi Guys
OK, thank you; I have trouble reconciling such a primitively made blade to a supposedly fine Solingen maker, even in the name of making a buck, but I accept it. I guess Wilkinson ended up making razor blades and garden shears while what remains of the Solingen blade industry makes cutlery, so I guess Kull making melon choppers on a blazing forge because the locals in the Sudan wanted to waste their money that way should come as no surprise. Shame, I was hoping this was an old horn of Africa made blade, or better of course.

On a more positive note, it would appear I have actually managed to buy a scarce to rare 1000 Blademaker Marks book, which I presume is what you showed excerpts of Iain?
Cheers
Mark

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Cuirassier

Hi Guys
OK, thank you; I have trouble reconciling such a primitively made blade to a supposedly fine Solingen maker, even in the name of making a buck, but I accept it. I guess Wilkinson ended up making razor blades and garden shears while what remains of the Solingen blade industry makes cutlery, so I guess Kull making melon choppers on a blazing forge because the locals in the Sudan wanted to waste their money that way should come as no surprise. Shame, I was hoping this was an old horn of Africa made blade, or better of course.

On a more positive note, it would appear I have actually managed to buy a scarce to rare 1000 Blademaker Marks book, which I presume is what you showed excerpts of Iain?
Cheers
Mark

Mark, welcome to weapons collecting 101 but truly sorry for the disappointment. It is an unfortunate truth that sometimes seriously studying a subject reveals that reality is more often than not, far more mundane than the folkore or presumptions most of us always hope will be found to be true.
Personally, I have studied weapons most of my life, and while often disappointed when the truth on a piece revealed far more mundane provenance than I had hoped....I have learned that with the truth, there was usually far more fascinating history beyond the embellished lore I had been led to believe.
Solingen was a huge industrial machine, and behind its success was of course commerce. The makers were there to earn a living, and of course they were masterfully skilled, but when fulfilling contracts, they produced in volume for effect.

For me, I have found the history of the tribes in the Sudan and Saharan regions and the weapons they use to this day fascinating, including the imports and commerce of blades from many sources. The markings and symbolisms on the blades have intriguing history into earlier times in swordmaking in Spain, Germany, Italy and England which have taken on new interpretations in native parlance. This was certainly not about misguided local tribesmen wasting money on cheap knockoff blades, this is about colonialism and building economies in tribal cultures, and the development and history around these times.

This is all a learning experience and truly adventures in history, the way it really happened, far from books. movies and popular folklore, and the weapons are our guides.

As you can see, when it comes to markings, this area is probably one of the least accurately documented topics in weapons collecting alongside the study of symbolism and decorative motif. The markings shown by Iain are from "Geschicte der Solingen Klingenindustrie" by Rudolf Cronau, Stuttgart, 1885, which has been reprinted.
Rather than trying to locate this it is better to get the paperback "German Swords and Swordmakers" by Richard Bezdek, which includes considerable detail on markings as well.

The book you have on order by Lenciewicz is actually a compendium of markings and thier presumed country of origin with approximate century. These are simply compiled presumably from actual examples, however no detail is given nor any information referenced but still provides interesting illustrations in line drawings. There are no weapons illustrated nor any text discussing any markings, and the book is still useful as a guide. I have a copy but use it mostly as a balance while using the others as primary sources when looking into markings.

In my opinion one of the best references to acquire is "European Arms and Armour" the Wallace Collection, by Sir. James Mann, London, 1962. in two volumes. It is a full catalogue with photo illustrations and line drawings of markings found along with detailed decriptions of the weapons and often notes on the marks. There are pages of markings at the back for quick reference and cross reference to the page and weapon they appear on.

Also you might see our thread on makers trademarks here which has some interesting information and discussions. While as I have noted there is a true dearth of material focused on weapons markings, you will see that the thread continues to escalate in views (now approaching 23,000!) clearly showing the profound interest in finding information on markings is out there.

Your sword is far from being a primatively forged hunk of steel of little worth, but a blade fabricated in industrial workshops bearing the marks of that maker and which were deeply imbued in meaning to the tribesmen who kept these swords with great pride and tradition.

I just wanted to put my perspective here as in the same way those tribesmen see these swords, even to this day,I see them in much the same sense. I personally treasure and admire these weapons and the cultures in which they have been used and maintained, in all degrees and scope from the munitions grade weapons of the rank and file to the beautifully crafted weapons in museums and fine collections.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Iain]

What Jim said. Can't honestly word it better myself. I am usually disappointed with every new piece I get - that typically goes away after a few days, but things are hardly ever what we would hope for in arms collecting. Part of the game is learning to appreciate an example objectively - something I struggle with fairly often.

I would still love to see more photography of the hilt of your sword - it is quite unique and well worth additional study. I am quite intrigued by the pommel and even the grip shape has such a difference with the typical Sudanese cylindrical grips that part of me wonders if it was redone by a Western collector or owner.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Edster

Jim, I stand corrected on Ali Dinar. Some of his swords are documented, including in the Forum. Got my "Alis" confused. I think it was Mohammad Ali of Egypt who defeated the last Fung king in 1821. I wonder if there are any documented swords from the Fung period.

Best,
Ed

Ed, please pardon my poorly worded note, I was unclear on which Ali Dinar was meant, and wanted to reconfirm. These names can be extremely confusing as they have so much similarity. These are often extremely complex as they are almost a geneological record in themselves when read entirely. For example, Muhammed Ali's son, who was also one of his general's, was the one referred to in 1821, but Muhammed Ali was indeed one part of his full name.

I am not sure if there are swords which can be attributed to the Fung dynasty, but there a number of heirloom blades remounted which belonged to Ali Dinar and certainly may be of these earlier periods. There are quite a number of weapons in Istanbul of Mamluk association which date from many of the earlier periods, and are well documented.

I would not presume to correct you, as I personally have learned a great deal from your outstanding dissertation and work on Kassalla, as well as our conversations.Superb research!!!

All the very best,
Jim