Unknown weapon

A. G. Maisey · 27th July 2011, 08:39 AM

Here is a pic of something I sold about 8 or 9 years ago.

I was told by somebody who should know a lot more than I do about Indian culture and society, that it is a ritual razor. It was pretty big, maybe 12 or 14 inches long, however held like a razor it was quite easy to use as one.

Yes, its gold koftgari and the ferrule was gold.

I apologise for the photo, its a pic of a pic, done by artificial light at night, with P&P camera.

tom hyle · 27th July 2011, 01:54 PM

AFAIK Nathaniel is essentially correct. Additionally to splitting rattan though, these long handled knives are used for carving wood. Not only does the long handle allow the blade to be driven with the shoulder or belly using the weight and power of the torso, but the massive blade reduces chatter/vibration/wiggle and gives stability to the cut.
On the other hand, SE Asia often shows a close kinship between fighting and work forms and Alan Maisey's highly decorated example is interesting. On an even longer handle, still often curved, there are cutting spears much like this, though they lack the widened butt for pushing against.
I've been drooling over this item, but buying others......

Tim Simmons · 27th July 2011, 06:39 PM

It is hard to deny that this knife must be related to the examples shown. A recent visitor whos oppions I found I had to respect suggested that this knife was from Asian Islands. I thought it could be some kind of fancy "Nifo Oti"

It is 21 inches long, blade 6.75 inches long, much the same as the item Detlef started the topic with. The blade is thin, 3mm at the very most near the forte, 5mm at the curl. The trouble is to me the handle decoration seems so not Asian? also the ferrule is is just bent round and not solderd or braised the ends just butting up to each other which does not strike me as Asian unless Island in the very extreme of east Asia? It would be great to find an answer. I no longer collect Asian weapons or any blades unless very unusual.

Nathaniel · 27th July 2011, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Here is a pic of something I sold about 8 or 9 years ago.

I was told by somebody who should know a lot more than I do about Indian culture and society, that it is a ritual razor. It was pretty big, maybe 12 or 14 inches long, however held like a razor it was quite easy to use as one.

Yes, its gold koftgari and the ferrule was gold.

I apologise for the photo, its a pic of a pic, done by artificial light at night, with P&P camera.

Wow, that is quite the fancy one! I've never seen one that decorative...just the simple utility pieces. Thanks for sharing! Always fun to see something you haven't seen before :-)

tom hyle · 29th July 2011, 01:47 AM

Tim, pretty sure yours is African

mohd · 29th July 2011, 02:37 PM

To me it looks like a Pisau Raut / Pisau Wali / Pisau Coret of Peninsular Malaysia or Penat of Sarawak

mohd

Tim Simmons · 29th July 2011, 06:03 PM

Can we take this further,

http://manzuritasuki.multiply.com/ph...alipisau_coret

Not very helpful? The visitor that suggested my piece was from Island Asia? could mean old Malaya or Borneo?

Tim Simmons · 29th July 2011, 09:05 PM

Untill more information is forth coming. I speculate that the example I have is some kind of Malaysian island sacrificial razor? Animist/Islamic fusion? Though I still do not see the carved decoration as Asian?

VANDOO · 5th August 2011, 11:45 PM

RAN ACROSS A EXAMPLE OF THIS FORM WHILE SEARCHING STONES, SEE PAGE 365 PLATE 459. FIG 4, SIAM RATTAN TRIMMING KNIFE 24IN. LONG, BLADE 8.5 IN.

A. G. Maisey · 6th August 2011, 03:09 AM

Barry, thank you for bringing this to our attention, but I feel that we are wandering away from the example that Sajen posted and that began this thread.

The one that I had , and have posted a pic of, was most certainly no tool, it was a very high quality, very refined implement, that carried quite a lot of gold. The daughter of an Indian Brahmin identified it as a ritual razor (she is married to friend).She may be right, or may be wrong, but in the hand and held as one would to shave, surprisely, it worked.

Sajen's example and the one I had appear to be vitually the same, except for the level of quality. However, we also see a procession of implements which are of similar overall form, but are clearly very different to the examples posted by Sajen and me.

I believe that this example shown in Stone is the most divergent yet.

27th July 2011, 08:39 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Here is a pic of something I sold about 8 or 9 years ago. I was told by somebody who should know a lot more than I do about Indian culture and society, that it is a ritual razor. It was pretty big, maybe 12 or 14 inches long, however held like a razor it was quite easy to use as one. Yes, its gold koftgari and the ferrule was gold. I apologise for the photo, its a pic of a pic, done by artificial light at night, with P&P camera. Attached Images

27th July 2011, 06:39 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	It is hard to deny that this knife must be related to the examples shown. A recent visitor whos oppions I found I had to respect suggested that this knife was from Asian Islands. I thought it could be some kind of fancy "Nifo Oti" It is 21 inches long, blade 6.75 inches long, much the same as the item Detlef started the topic with. The blade is thin, 3mm at the very most near the forte, 5mm at the curl. The trouble is to me the handle decoration seems so not Asian? also the ferrule is is just bent round and not solderd or braised the ends just butting up to each other which does not strike me as Asian unless Island in the very extreme of east Asia? It would be great to find an answer. I no longer collect Asian weapons or any blades unless very unusual. Attached Images

27th July 2011, 01:54 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	AFAIK Nathaniel is essentially correct. Additionally to splitting rattan though, these long handled knives are used for carving wood. Not only does the long handle allow the blade to be driven with the shoulder or belly using the weight and power of the torso, but the massive blade reduces chatter/vibration/wiggle and gives stability to the cut. On the other hand, SE Asia often shows a close kinship between fighting and work forms and Alan Maisey's highly decorated example is interesting. On an even longer handle, still often curved, there are cutting spears much like this, though they lack the widened butt for pushing against. I've been drooling over this item, but buying others......

29th July 2011, 01:47 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Tim, pretty sure yours is African

29th July 2011, 02:37 PM	#6
mohd Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 41	To me it looks like a Pisau Raut / Pisau Wali / Pisau Coret of Peninsular Malaysia or Penat of Sarawak mohd

29th July 2011, 06:03 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Can we take this further, http://manzuritasuki.multiply.com/ph...alipisau_coret Not very helpful? The visitor that suggested my piece was from Island Asia? could mean old Malaya or Borneo?

29th July 2011, 09:05 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Untill more information is forth coming. I speculate that the example I have is some kind of Malaysian island sacrificial razor? Animist/Islamic fusion? Though I still do not see the carved decoration as Asian?

5th August 2011, 11:45 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	RAN ACROSS A EXAMPLE OF THIS FORM WHILE SEARCHING STONES, SEE PAGE 365 PLATE 459. FIG 4, SIAM RATTAN TRIMMING KNIFE 24IN. LONG, BLADE 8.5 IN.

6th August 2011, 03:09 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Barry, thank you for bringing this to our attention, but I feel that we are wandering away from the example that Sajen posted and that began this thread. The one that I had , and have posted a pic of, was most certainly no tool, it was a very high quality, very refined implement, that carried quite a lot of gold. The daughter of an Indian Brahmin identified it as a ritual razor (she is married to friend).She may be right, or may be wrong, but in the hand and held as one would to shave, surprisely, it worked. Sajen's example and the one I had appear to be vitually the same, except for the level of quality. However, we also see a procession of implements which are of similar overall form, but are clearly very different to the examples posted by Sajen and me. I believe that this example shown in Stone is the most divergent yet.