Shashka mostlikely Bukharan

ALEX · 20th July 2011, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

The dealer first presented this to me as a Safavid sword, ... I am told by dealers here that the ability to make wootz blades in afghanistan were lost around the time of Safavids, that is probably when they see blades with Jowhar they think it is Safavi...

the first statement tells a lot about the dealer:-) ... the following does not come far either:-) they say it to make the sword more attractive and expensive... every wootz sword they sell is probably Safavid:-)

I think the shashka is more Afghani then Central Asian, or a mix of both. The blade looks much Indian actually!!!! can we see it in full length?

AJ1356 · 20th July 2011, 02:28 PM

Gav, that is a beautiful collection you have, I have seen the one with the blue velvet cover before, probably on this forum.
Alex, the reason the dealers in Afghanistan claim things as Safawi is ofcourse they want to get a higher price, but mainly is because they don't know any better, they ones i have talked to tell me of most items that they just know if it is fake or real. As far as putting an age ro era they are pretty much lost. Most know nothing about antiques they have just fallen into the trade by chance, go figure.

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2011, 04:40 PM

Yeowwweee!!! Gav, there they are!!! Absolutely breathtaking panoply of these sabres. Now I need to go lay down a while

I agree with Alex this shashka seems more inclined toward Afghan. The 'Safavid' term for this weapon is of course somewhat misplaced chronologically, and while that dynasty effectively ended in 1736, its impact obviously remains strong in the Iranian character and culture thus the term is meant more figuratively I would imagine. With this being a relatively modern piece perhaps they cannot have meant Safavid literally, the Safavids did not use shashkas, nor were these forms present in those times. The ricasso on the blade is most interesting as noted and not characteristic of these weapons in these regions but more to Northern India, suggesting the blade may be from there, and even more supporting Afghan provenance.

A.alnakkas · 22nd July 2011, 12:50 PM

Attractive saber, AJ!

Amazing collection Gav. The Bukharan, as you told me is the top one. Is it identified by the hilt shape? the blades look very similar!

I always wondered why these sabers have no guard. They look very attractive though.

The two bottom ones have blades almost identical to ones I seen in arab swords.

Gavin Nugent · 23rd July 2011, 06:14 AM

True Buhkaran sabres are a special breed un to themselves andsomewhat of a mystery.

I know the city night watchmen and day guards within the walls did not wear swords during the later part of the 19th century and it is likey this was the case earlier too so I can only assume at this point in time that the Buhkaran sabres were only in the hands of military forces or men who could afford them and were allowed to wear them.

The below image and the one shown at the top of my grouping above will help seperate the Bukharan sabres from the other larger Afghan or Central Asian cousins such as the one you present AJ.

Philip Tom describes the Bukharan form best. From a post I can not pinpoint at present;

Quote;
"1. The "szabla bukharska" generally has a blade whose width expands just before it meets the handle. (sometimes the effect is subtle because of repeated sharpening, but even in such cases the change in width is apparent when you compare the edge and spine contours) Occasionally, the edge widens out to a short blunted area or "ricasso", a feature seen on many Indian talwars and Afghan puluoar blades. The shashka's curve or contour at the edge tends to maintain a more constant relationship to that of the spine, and a prominent ricasso is generally absent.

2. Bukharska tips are generally more acute than the more deeply radiused edge at the average shashka's point.

3. The hilt of a shaskha is invariably "cleft" with a deep V notch between two "ears" at the pommel. Bukharska hilts are solid and don't expand into these big ears.

4. The mouth of the bukharska scabbard never swallows the hilt of the sword like the majority of shashka scabbards do. The slightly wedge-shaped "nose" of the blade bolster nests in a shallow V shaped cutout in the mouth of the scabbard.

If you look at the closest weapon that incorporates all 4 of the above features which are characteristic of these Turkestan sabers, you come up with ..... the Persian pesh kabz. Imagine that you can inject a curved bladed pesh kabz with steroids, and massage it just a little bit, and you can see how these sabers could come about.

5. Another thing comes to mind: Shashkas for the most part seem to be universally long, the blades generally over 31 inches (unless damaged and re tipped). I have noted a large proportion of bukharskas that tend to be on the short side, well under 30 inches. The shashka is of course a horseman's weapon, so length is important. The peoples of Turkestan had cavalry forces too, but in states such as Bukhara, Samarqand, and Khiva, the rulers fielded infantry forces as well. Admittedly, we do not have complete information yet about the use of these sabers; Herr Rohrer states that the exact manner of attaching the scabbard to the wearer's body was not known. So, further research is needed."Unquote.

Below is an Image from the Moscow Museum or Oriental art.

Descriptions are as follows.

""Bukhara, Uzbekistan. 19th century

Steel, silver gilt, turquoise, bone.

Length 101 cm. Inv. No. 3404 III

Received in 1949 from a private collection.

Steel, velvet, turquoise, bone.

Length 92 cm. Inv. No. 2280

Received in 1930 from a private collection

Steel, turquoise, enamel.

Length 90 cm. lnv.No.3705 III

Received in 1952 from the Hermitage, Leningrad. First publication.

The blades of sabres were made of high-quality steel and often decorated with engraved ornamentation. The scabbards were usually decorated with great lavishness. They were made of precious materials-white or gilded silver adorned with chased or engraved floral patterns. They were also frequently decorated with polychrome enamels and set with precious or semiprecious stones- diamonds, corals and polished turquoise which, according to local beliefs, brought luck.

In the 19th century, cold steel practically lost its primary function as a weapon and became merely an attribute of men's costumes on festive and ceremonial occasion. In the khanates of Bukhara, Kokand and Khiva such sabres were granted as rewards to courtiers and presented as gifts to foreign ambassadors and rulers.""

This image is not to say all Bukharan sabres are stone encrusted beauties (one of which I hope to obtain one day), mine is testament to plainer dress and so far it is of a unique blade profile.

Gav

A.alnakkas · 23rd July 2011, 10:39 AM

I can feel my bank account cry as I set the plan to own one of those haha

Thanks for the info Gav, its a treasure to a beginner like me :-)

Gavin Nugent · 23rd July 2011, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I can feel my bank account cry as I set the plan to own one of those haha

Thanks for the info Gav, its a treasure to a beginner like me :-)

Bank account.....yeah I have one too but the balance...well there is a sad story....

Happy to help Lofty and I hope it is of some help to others too.

Gav

AJ1356 · 23rd July 2011, 05:38 PM

Gav that is some great info, and those are some beautiful scabards, pretty sure the blades inside are awesome as well. My grandmother was from Samarqand and I remember when i was super young there was a sword at home that they had brought with them after the Russians had invaded and they had migerated to Afghanistan. It was all metal with no scabard but the hilt shape was just like the ones you pictured. One a second thought maybe i should try to see how i can get that.
Back to my shashka, This week I am super busy at work, Hopefully in a couple of days i can get everything done and go and pay off this shashka and then take some better pictures. I bet with the pictures of the full lenght blade it would be easier to indentify. On another thought I wonder who came up with the word Palowar/Palouar for afghan swords, we call them simply as shamshir, just like pretty much every other sword.

Dom · 24th July 2011, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

True Buhkaran sabres are a special breed un to themselves and some what of a mystery.
...snip...
This image is not to say all Bukharan sabres are stone encrusted beauties

Hi Gav
but, I think that we might said that;
- all (or roughly) swords or daggers with turquoise decor on hilt or scabbard come at least from Bukhara

à +

Dom

AJ1356 · 24th July 2011, 03:29 PM

I picked up the shashka today so here are some more pictures. Have to mention the it is super light. the overall lenght is about 34inches, and the blade is about 28 inches, the thickness of the blade on the spine is about 3/16 of an inch maybe less and the blade is about as wide as a US quarter. At the tip the blade becomes double edged (ofcourse not as sharp as the main edge) and then comes to a sudden point as show in picture. I don't have better ligghting to take better pictures.

ALEX · 25th July 2011, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

... The blade looks much Indian actually!!!! can we see it in full length?

The blade is Indian. Refitted and rehilted, this is why crude rivet and incomplete hilt assembly.

AJ1356 · 25th July 2011, 04:34 PM

one thing i noticed today, which could be a makers mark or something. I was wondering what was the marking on the blade, and then i saw the same thing on the scabard.

Gavin Nugent · 26th July 2011, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

one thing i noticed today, which could be a makers mark or something. I was wondering what was the marking on the blade, and then i saw the same thing on the scabard.

AJ,

I have seen very similar symbols in Seljuq school architecture so I would say it is presented as something in the way of a tribute to the old Turco-Persian rulers of Central Asia.

I would suggest starting there to look for the symbol in Seljuq and post Seljuq period art work and architecture .

I know I have it in books here but I am just too busy at present to get through my own work to look.

Gav

AJ1356 · 26th July 2011, 03:45 PM

Gav,
you have been very helpfull and I am very appreciative of that. I do have to do alot of researching to find out more about this certain peice. I think I might have to cough up the money for this one book Islamic Arm and Armour, from what i read it seems to be the source for all these things. And I should continue researching and expanding my limited knowledge. On that all steal sword, I have to see who has it and if I can have it. But there is a much better one I have inherited and as soon as i recieve it I'll post pictures, this one has better history

As far as the symbol, I see that the seljuq one is a double headed eagle, pretty close but not the same. I'll keep looking.

Gavin Nugent · 27th July 2011, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

Gav,
you have been very helpfull and I am very appreciative of that. I do have to do alot of researching to find out more about this certain peice. I think I might have to cough up the money for this one book Islamic Arm and Armour, from what i read it seems to be the source for all these things. And I should continue researching and expanding my limited knowledge. On that all steal sword, I have to see who has it and if I can have it. But there is a much better one I have inherited and as soon as i recieve it I'll post pictures, this one has better history

As far as the symbol, I see that the seljuq one is a double headed eagle, pretty close but not the same. I'll keep looking.

AJ,

The books Islamic Arms and Armour is a very fine and detailed book. If you find you want extracts from it let me know and I'll scan them for you until you can source your own copy.
I look forward to images of your upcoming swords too.

With regards to the Seljuq motif I was thinking off, I took the time tonight to check my references and found that what I was thinking of is not an exact match but only shares loose similarities and can not be considered conclusive but is the closest that comes to my mind; See the image below.

Gav

ariel · 30th July 2011, 03:54 PM

Sorry for not jumping into fray earlier, but most of what I wanted to say was already said by other people.

I think the "shashka" in question resembles very much the Afghani examples, and not the Uzbeki ( Bukharan) ones. The configuration of the blade is different ( Uzbeki had what I, for wont of a better word, would call triangular, with wide base and gentle narrowing toward the tip), the rivets are not the Bukharan classic 2x1x2 pattern, the incisions on the bolster are very Afghani, kind of "torn stars", the terminal fitting on the scabbard is very long, again Afghani ( see the one I recently posted).

It walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. I suspect, it is a duck. An Afghani duck:-)

That said, it is a very, very nice Afghani " pseudo-shashka" ( as per Lebedinsky), but perhaps not a primarily fighting example. Afghanis are kind of simple people, not given to artistic embellishments, and prefering their fighting weapons to be crudely and brutally functional. They fought non-stop for centuries and continued to fight long after everybody else enjoyed their yoghurt and melons. The two Afghani shashkas I have are wearing very long and massive blades, and the same is true of Gav's example. This one is more parade, ceremonial, court ( choose your definition), light, shortish etc.

So, my overall impression is that of a rich man's, ceremonial Afghani pseudo-shashka.

23rd July 2011, 06:14 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	True Buhkaran sabres are a special breed un to themselves andsomewhat of a mystery. I know the city night watchmen and day guards within the walls did not wear swords during the later part of the 19th century and it is likey this was the case earlier too so I can only assume at this point in time that the Buhkaran sabres were only in the hands of military forces or men who could afford them and were allowed to wear them. The below image and the one shown at the top of my grouping above will help seperate the Bukharan sabres from the other larger Afghan or Central Asian cousins such as the one you present AJ. Philip Tom describes the Bukharan form best. From a post I can not pinpoint at present; Quote; "1. The "szabla bukharska" generally has a blade whose width expands just before it meets the handle. (sometimes the effect is subtle because of repeated sharpening, but even in such cases the change in width is apparent when you compare the edge and spine contours) Occasionally, the edge widens out to a short blunted area or "ricasso", a feature seen on many Indian talwars and Afghan puluoar blades. The shashka's curve or contour at the edge tends to maintain a more constant relationship to that of the spine, and a prominent ricasso is generally absent. 2. Bukharska tips are generally more acute than the more deeply radiused edge at the average shashka's point. 3. The hilt of a shaskha is invariably "cleft" with a deep V notch between two "ears" at the pommel. Bukharska hilts are solid and don't expand into these big ears. 4. The mouth of the bukharska scabbard never swallows the hilt of the sword like the majority of shashka scabbards do. The slightly wedge-shaped "nose" of the blade bolster nests in a shallow V shaped cutout in the mouth of the scabbard. If you look at the closest weapon that incorporates all 4 of the above features which are characteristic of these Turkestan sabers, you come up with ..... the Persian pesh kabz. Imagine that you can inject a curved bladed pesh kabz with steroids, and massage it just a little bit, and you can see how these sabers could come about. 5. Another thing comes to mind: Shashkas for the most part seem to be universally long, the blades generally over 31 inches (unless damaged and re tipped). I have noted a large proportion of bukharskas that tend to be on the short side, well under 30 inches. The shashka is of course a horseman's weapon, so length is important. The peoples of Turkestan had cavalry forces too, but in states such as Bukhara, Samarqand, and Khiva, the rulers fielded infantry forces as well. Admittedly, we do not have complete information yet about the use of these sabers; Herr Rohrer states that the exact manner of attaching the scabbard to the wearer's body was not known. So, further research is needed."Unquote. Below is an Image from the Moscow Museum or Oriental art. Descriptions are as follows. ""Bukhara, Uzbekistan. 19th century Steel, silver gilt, turquoise, bone. Length 101 cm. Inv. No. 3404 III Received in 1949 from a private collection. Steel, velvet, turquoise, bone. Length 92 cm. Inv. No. 2280 Received in 1930 from a private collection Steel, turquoise, enamel. Length 90 cm. lnv.No.3705 III Received in 1952 from the Hermitage, Leningrad. First publication. The blades of sabres were made of high-quality steel and often decorated with engraved ornamentation. The scabbards were usually decorated with great lavishness. They were made of precious materials-white or gilded silver adorned with chased or engraved floral patterns. They were also frequently decorated with polychrome enamels and set with precious or semiprecious stones- diamonds, corals and polished turquoise which, according to local beliefs, brought luck. In the 19th century, cold steel practically lost its primary function as a weapon and became merely an attribute of men's costumes on festive and ceremonial occasion. In the khanates of Bukhara, Kokand and Khiva such sabres were granted as rewards to courtiers and presented as gifts to foreign ambassadors and rulers."" This image is not to say all Bukharan sabres are stone encrusted beauties (one of which I hope to obtain one day), mine is testament to plainer dress and so far it is of a unique blade profile. Gav Attached Images

24th July 2011, 03:29 PM	#10
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	I picked up the shashka today so here are some more pictures. Have to mention the it is super light. the overall lenght is about 34inches, and the blade is about 28 inches, the thickness of the blade on the spine is about 3/16 of an inch maybe less and the blade is about as wide as a US quarter. At the tip the blade becomes double edged (ofcourse not as sharp as the main edge) and then comes to a sudden point as show in picture. I don't have better ligghting to take better pictures. Attached Images

25th July 2011, 04:34 PM	#12
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	one thing i noticed today, which could be a makers mark or something. I was wondering what was the marking on the blade, and then i saw the same thing on the scabard. Attached Images

20th July 2011, 02:28 PM	#2
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	Gav, that is a beautiful collection you have, I have seen the one with the blue velvet cover before, probably on this forum. Alex, the reason the dealers in Afghanistan claim things as Safawi is ofcourse they want to get a higher price, but mainly is because they don't know any better, they ones i have talked to tell me of most items that they just know if it is fake or real. As far as putting an age ro era they are pretty much lost. Most know nothing about antiques they have just fallen into the trade by chance, go figure.

20th July 2011, 04:40 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Yeowwweee!!! Gav, there they are!!! Absolutely breathtaking panoply of these sabres. Now I need to go lay down a while I agree with Alex this shashka seems more inclined toward Afghan. The 'Safavid' term for this weapon is of course somewhat misplaced chronologically, and while that dynasty effectively ended in 1736, its impact obviously remains strong in the Iranian character and culture thus the term is meant more figuratively I would imagine. With this being a relatively modern piece perhaps they cannot have meant Safavid literally, the Safavids did not use shashkas, nor were these forms present in those times. The ricasso on the blade is most interesting as noted and not characteristic of these weapons in these regions but more to Northern India, suggesting the blade may be from there, and even more supporting Afghan provenance.

22nd July 2011, 12:50 PM	#4
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Attractive saber, AJ! Amazing collection Gav. The Bukharan, as you told me is the top one. Is it identified by the hilt shape? the blades look very similar! I always wondered why these sabers have no guard. They look very attractive though. The two bottom ones have blades almost identical to ones I seen in arab swords.

23rd July 2011, 10:39 AM	#6
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	I can feel my bank account cry as I set the plan to own one of those haha Thanks for the info Gav, its a treasure to a beginner like me :-)

23rd July 2011, 05:38 PM	#8
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	Gav that is some great info, and those are some beautiful scabards, pretty sure the blades inside are awesome as well. My grandmother was from Samarqand and I remember when i was super young there was a sword at home that they had brought with them after the Russians had invaded and they had migerated to Afghanistan. It was all metal with no scabard but the hilt shape was just like the ones you pictured. One a second thought maybe i should try to see how i can get that. Back to my shashka, This week I am super busy at work, Hopefully in a couple of days i can get everything done and go and pay off this shashka and then take some better pictures. I bet with the pictures of the full lenght blade it would be easier to indentify. On another thought I wonder who came up with the word Palowar/Palouar for afghan swords, we call them simply as shamshir, just like pretty much every other sword.

26th July 2011, 03:45 PM	#14
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	Gav, you have been very helpfull and I am very appreciative of that. I do have to do alot of researching to find out more about this certain peice. I think I might have to cough up the money for this one book Islamic Arm and Armour, from what i read it seems to be the source for all these things. And I should continue researching and expanding my limited knowledge. On that all steal sword, I have to see who has it and if I can have it. But there is a much better one I have inherited and as soon as i recieve it I'll post pictures, this one has better history As far as the symbol, I see that the seljuq one is a double headed eagle, pretty close but not the same. I'll keep looking.

30th July 2011, 03:54 PM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sorry for not jumping into fray earlier, but most of what I wanted to say was already said by other people. I think the "shashka" in question resembles very much the Afghani examples, and not the Uzbeki ( Bukharan) ones. The configuration of the blade is different ( Uzbeki had what I, for wont of a better word, would call triangular, with wide base and gentle narrowing toward the tip), the rivets are not the Bukharan classic 2x1x2 pattern, the incisions on the bolster are very Afghani, kind of "torn stars", the terminal fitting on the scabbard is very long, again Afghani ( see the one I recently posted). It walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. I suspect, it is a duck. An Afghani duck:-) That said, it is a very, very nice Afghani " pseudo-shashka" ( as per Lebedinsky), but perhaps not a primarily fighting example. Afghanis are kind of simple people, not given to artistic embellishments, and prefering their fighting weapons to be crudely and brutally functional. They fought non-stop for centuries and continued to fight long after everybody else enjoyed their yoghurt and melons. The two Afghani shashkas I have are wearing very long and massive blades, and the same is true of Gav's example. This one is more parade, ceremonial, court ( choose your definition), light, shortish etc. So, my overall impression is that of a rich man's, ceremonial Afghani pseudo-shashka.