BAT HILTS

[tom hyle]

interesting.
The Zanzibar swords in question are, I believe, not kattaras as has been apparently suposed, but the East coast nimcha/saifs, which can be seperated from those of the North coast by a number of details, most notably annoes and also a shorter quillon block with a punched-through tang hole rather than the hollow center found on the Moorocan type guards. I tend to view these as Swahili, and I see them all along the coast, rather than just from Zanzibar or Yemen to which they are commonly attributed.
Certainly one sees a resemblance between these types, and the flat-tang no-guard Berber sabers, and the middle-eastern Arab saif, and all seem closely related.
I have always considered the Philipino head pommels an extension of native animist culture. Their stylization seems more that of the Pacific than that of Islam to me.
The handling of the ears is notably different than on a saif (where there are never[?] a seperate front and back ear and where the nose comes to resemble an ear) or shah shish qa and yatagan (where the ears are seperated but stylized in a very different fashion than in SE Asia).
The iconography cited for saif is always the horse, while the SE Asian hilts depict a great range of deities/animals, all resembling each other in style.
Then there is the Turkish style pinky pull found on "nimcha"s; a feature of Turkish knives, including yatagan, not generally seen on their longer swords.
At the end of your handle, a hook is good. Hooks look like heads.
Just thoughts; no conclusions.
That's what's so interesting

[migueldiaz]

thanks to royston for bringing up the topic. and i agree with the opinions that it's all merely coincidental.

as far as trading activities are concerned (precolonial per illustration, and thereafter), the bicol region had always been in the backwater. thus if there were a sword design that trickled down to bicol via trading, we would have found a similar design along the trading routes, within the philippines and also in the neighboring countries. but there's none.

also as pointed out, the designs in philippine (and southeast asian) weapons can be traced to the olden animistic beliefs. thus the 'motive' for the region's sword designs was different vs. middle eastern sword designs.

incidentally, may i inquire what thus was the inspiration behind the hilt design of arab swords (aside from the usual practical considerations, like easier drawing of the sword from the scabbard)? thanks in advance.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

thanks to royston for bringing up the topic. and i agree with the opinions that it's all merely coincidental.

as far as trading activities are concerned (precolonial per illustration, and thereafter), the bicol region had always been in the backwater. thus if there were a sword design that trickled down to bicol via trading, we would have found a similar design along the trading routes, within the philippines and also in the neighboring countries. but there's none.

also as pointed out, the designs in philippine (and southeast asian) weapons can be traced to the olden animistic beliefs. thus the 'motive' for the region's sword designs was different vs. middle eastern sword designs.

incidentally, may i inquire what thus was the inspiration behind the hilt design of arab swords (aside from the usual practical considerations, like easier drawing of the sword from the scabbard)? thanks in advance.

Salaams, Thanks for the clear map. Your question as to design is perhaps best answered by the origin of species of this sort of Arab sword which seems to stem from Italian and Venetian types perhaps moving down the Med along the Barbary Coast as far as Magreb and certianly eveident in Ageria morocco Saudia Oman(mainly Zanzibar) and Yemen. As a biproduct of it being around in the courtly neighborhoods of Rome and Venice a likely cousin to the early style appears on the waistbelt of Captains of the Great Bands of London (no doubt having visited such places) thus worn by Tobias Blose in my earlier letter. Your point about animalistic (Zoomorphic) hilt is understood but cannot be verified since the highly zoomorphic hilt from a morphed Nimcha appears on Sri Lankan Swords. It is always possible that the Philippines variant is a derivitive of that sword, however, it is agreed that it appears to be unrelated parallel development compared to the Arab Nimcha generally .. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Spunjer]

Your point about animalistic (Zoomorphic) hilt is understood but cannot be verified since the highly zoomorphic hilt from a morphed Nimcha appears on Sri Lankan Swords.

Ibrahim, lorenz is referring to the old pre-hispanic and pre-islamic belief of the people of the Philippines, which was Animism. if one would really look at the weapons of the Philippines from Aparri (north) to Sulu (south), a lot of these could still be seen, evident from the once strong animistic, not animalistic, belief of the people.

[Battara]

I still believe that parallel development and/or independent origination is a viable explanation here. Many examples in world history and cultures exist.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Battara

I still believe that parallel development and/or independent origination is a viable explanation here. Many examples in world history and cultures exist.

I totally agree!

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

Ibrahim, lorenz is referring to the old pre-hispanic and pre-islamic belief of the people of the Philippines, which was Animism. if one would really look at the weapons of the Philippines from Aparri (north) to Sulu (south), a lot of these could still be seen, evident from the once strong animistic, not animalistic, belief of the people.

Thanks, Ron!

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Your point about animalistic (Zoomorphic) hilt is understood but cannot be verified since the highly zoomorphic hilt from a morphed Nimcha appears on Sri Lankan Swords.

Ibrahim, thanks again for your comments. In the case of Filipino weapons (and am sure it would be true for the neighboring countries' case), the matter is verifiable. I've written an article for a local academic journal specifically establishing the link between the objects of our forefathers' animism, vis-a-vis our traditional sword forms. The article is here. It's written in Filipino, thus you would probably need to find somebody who can translate it for you

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Thanks, Ron!

Ibrahim, thanks again for your comments. In the case of Filipino weapons (and am sure it would be true for the neighboring countries' case), the matter is verifiable. I've written an article for a local academic journal specifically establishing the link between the objects of our forefathers' animism, vis-a-vis our traditional sword forms. The article is here. It's written in Filipino, thus you would probably need to find somebody who can translate it for you

Salaams,

Great ... Can you present that work to the Forum please?

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Great ... Can you present that work to the Forum please?

Ibrahiim, thank you. Yes, sure. Regards.

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim, your summation of the complexity of the connections between the trade between these cultural spheres and development and cross influences of these weapons is brilliant! I agree, the discussion on development and history of the so called nim'cha's seems to almost have been avoided through many years. The presently running thread (Oman, Morocco or Zanzibar)on these fascinating swords also is focused on these and I think we are actually making some headway.

Actually the influence of these Arab swords, via North Africa and the Maghreb in particular, have indeed been carried into Spain as well as its colonies including New Spain, Cuba and South America, with its outer points in the Philippines. There is evidence of these influences in characteristics in Spanish colonial hangers (espada anchas) and various swords and edged weapons. Examples of South American espada have the distinct nock in the top of the grip seen on the 'nim'cha' , and there are types of swords now attributed to Cuba which have been also associated with Algeria. There are numerous other influences of Moorish Spain and its culture evident throughout Spains colonies.
All of these were easily carried into the Philippines, and conversely, even Chinese influences returned to New Spain (Mexico) from trade interaction there. The diffusion of these weapons in the confluence of trade in these archipelagos between the Philippines, Indonesia, China, Malaysia, India are well established. Naturally various hybrids and anomalies are to be expected in these trade networks, but are of course hard to track with certainty in most cases. Typically such things are accomplished only with a propensity of examples of like form occurring in a region and accompanied with reasonable provenance.

As noted on the other thread, most of the weapons I have encountered claimed to be from Zanzibar are only tenuously connected, with no sound evidence to support such attribution that I have been aware of. There are a good number of these sa'if (nimcha) with ring loops on crossguard claimed to be Zanzibar produced (Tirri, 2003) but all other references I have seen list them as 'Arab' (Buttin, 1933,1939) .

These style hilts with the highly stylized form with zoomorphic profile seem to have appeared in North Africa, Arabia, India and as noted Indonesia and the Philippines. As with the flyssa and karabela, we can only speculate what animal or creature these represent.

All best regards,
Jim