Oh yes!

rickystl · 30th June 2011, 09:50 PM

Hello again. Oh, the joys of working on antique middle eastern firearms

After reading your last Post, and again looking at your photos. First of all the Hammer Screw: I looks like it may have had a slot for a screwdrive at one time in the past (?). Maybe the threads were so worn, and maybe an ear was broke on the screw head, someone just hammered it flat to keep the hammer from falling off. That would explain the brass washer under it. You might use a hacksaw

and cut a slot on the head so you can use a flat blade screwdriver and try to remove it. Of course, this assumes that it actually is threaded into the tumbler/shaft. NOTE: I have seen locks where the tumbler and shaft are one piece. And others that are two pieces.
The Barrel: Hmmmm. It would be interesting to know if that pin that goes from the sling swivel is threaded to the barrel tang. Or is it just a pin that is hammered to the tang. I can't tell by the photo. The small pin at the sling swivel would have to be removed in any case. It's probably malable iron and would be easy to file narrow - just enough to remove it. Keep me posted on your progress. Your's has all kinds of interesting twists and turns to dis-assemble

By the way, Afgan rifles are noted for this. Most saw so much hard use that when a repair was needed in the field they likely resorted to whatever method of repair was available with no gunsmith available. Their guns were probably in a constant state of repair. But this is part of the "mystic" I find so interesting about these guns. Again, thanks for posting. Rick.

RDGAC · 30th June 2011, 10:16 PM

Rick: To answer one query, the tang screw is indeed a screw; the threads are so faint it's not at all easy to make them out, but there they certainly are. I suspect it's just become so worn that someone's peened over the end and left it at that. In fairness to whoever it was, if the bloody barrel's working up enough kinetic energy during recoil to put any real stress on the tang screw, you're doing something wrong in any case!

Edit: It seems that (according to a very helpful chap on another forum), this is an EIC Baker pattern lock, made from 1818-1839. It also seems, annoyingly, that the cock was originally secured by something called a "bun nut" (found a few pictures but can't find a Google match for the term itself) secured to a threaded extension to the square, and he suspects that this extension has been peened over during the conversion as it was beyond the capabilities of the local craftsmen to make a replacement bun nut for the new hammer.

rickystl · 1st July 2011, 04:41 PM

Hello again. I posted my last reply just before I saw the additional photos. Think you and I posted almost the same moment?
The Barrel: I just noticed the single hole rear sight on the barrel. That shape/style is very much Turkish or Persian. Could be the origin of the barrel?
Barrel Tang Screw: I now see what you mean. You can file down the burr on the top near the tang. Then remove that small pin at the lower end near the sling swivel. You should then be able to remove the barrel screw from the bottom. The barrel tang and screw can have new threads made later. (I'm assuming you want to remove the barrel). Most Afgan rifles I've seen have fairly thick barrel bands. To get the rear bands off you will probably have to remove the forward sling swival. Instead of a screw attachment, most have a pin and brace assembly. Yet another pin

That will have to be cut off on one end. (The pin can have threads added later if you want). If the barrel bands won't slide off by hand, a smaller hammer and a wooden dowel will usually work.
The Lock: The lock looks very much like a locally made one. Maybe "copied" from the Baker pattern?
Keep me posted on your progress. Rick.

RDGAC · 2nd July 2011, 11:10 PM

Don't think it's a copied lock, Rick. If it is, it's astoundingly good; the fit and finish of the parts is superb and conforms exactly to what I'd expect of a contemporary British lock, and the stamps and engravings (including the tiny initials of JW (likely Job Wilkes, of Darlaston, Staffordshire, or so I'm told) the lock-maker, on the inside of the lockplate), and the spring is certainly far stronger than any Afghan spring I've yet seen. The hammer I'd agree is a local copy (albeit of very high quality; the throw's not quite right for it to hit the nipple square-on, but the engraving's very good and it's beautifully shaped - even the cross-hatching on the spur is bloody good).

rickystl · 3rd July 2011, 05:31 PM

I see what you mean. Yes, agreed. After a closer look at your photos, I'm sure that's an English lock. The J.W., etc. It's just the hammer that appears locally made. Which may be the reason why the hammer is fastened to the lock in that manner. The user probably could not find a screw that matched.
Your gun should clean up real nice. I really like the barrel on yours. Rick.

RDGAC · 3rd July 2011, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

I see what you mean. Yes, agreed. After a closer look at your photos, I'm sure that's an English lock. The J.W., etc. It's just the hammer that appears locally made. Which may be the reason why the hammer is fastened to the lock in that manner. The user probably could not find a screw that matched.
Your gun should clean up real nice. I really like the barrel on yours. Rick.

It's a fine barrel, yes. The weight's reassuringly high. Only problem is that removing the barrel bands or putting them back erodes that lovely patina on it.

30th June 2011, 10:16 PM	#2
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Rick: To answer one query, the tang screw is indeed a screw; the threads are so faint it's not at all easy to make them out, but there they certainly are. I suspect it's just become so worn that someone's peened over the end and left it at that. In fairness to whoever it was, if the bloody barrel's working up enough kinetic energy during recoil to put any real stress on the tang screw, you're doing something wrong in any case! Edit: It seems that (according to a very helpful chap on another forum), this is an EIC Baker pattern lock, made from 1818-1839. It also seems, annoyingly, that the cock was originally secured by something called a "bun nut" (found a few pictures but can't find a Google match for the term itself) secured to a threaded extension to the square, and he suspects that this extension has been peened over during the conversion as it was beyond the capabilities of the local craftsmen to make a replacement bun nut for the new hammer. Last edited by RDGAC; 30th June 2011 at 10:41 PM.

30th June 2011, 09:50 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hello again. Oh, the joys of working on antique middle eastern firearms After reading your last Post, and again looking at your photos. First of all the Hammer Screw: I looks like it may have had a slot for a screwdrive at one time in the past (?). Maybe the threads were so worn, and maybe an ear was broke on the screw head, someone just hammered it flat to keep the hammer from falling off. That would explain the brass washer under it. You might use a hacksaw and cut a slot on the head so you can use a flat blade screwdriver and try to remove it. Of course, this assumes that it actually is threaded into the tumbler/shaft. NOTE: I have seen locks where the tumbler and shaft are one piece. And others that are two pieces. The Barrel: Hmmmm. It would be interesting to know if that pin that goes from the sling swivel is threaded to the barrel tang. Or is it just a pin that is hammered to the tang. I can't tell by the photo. The small pin at the sling swivel would have to be removed in any case. It's probably malable iron and would be easy to file narrow - just enough to remove it. Keep me posted on your progress. Your's has all kinds of interesting twists and turns to dis-assemble By the way, Afgan rifles are noted for this. Most saw so much hard use that when a repair was needed in the field they likely resorted to whatever method of repair was available with no gunsmith available. Their guns were probably in a constant state of repair. But this is part of the "mystic" I find so interesting about these guns. Again, thanks for posting. Rick.

1st July 2011, 04:41 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hello again. I posted my last reply just before I saw the additional photos. Think you and I posted almost the same moment? The Barrel: I just noticed the single hole rear sight on the barrel. That shape/style is very much Turkish or Persian. Could be the origin of the barrel? Barrel Tang Screw: I now see what you mean. You can file down the burr on the top near the tang. Then remove that small pin at the lower end near the sling swivel. You should then be able to remove the barrel screw from the bottom. The barrel tang and screw can have new threads made later. (I'm assuming you want to remove the barrel). Most Afgan rifles I've seen have fairly thick barrel bands. To get the rear bands off you will probably have to remove the forward sling swival. Instead of a screw attachment, most have a pin and brace assembly. Yet another pin That will have to be cut off on one end. (The pin can have threads added later if you want). If the barrel bands won't slide off by hand, a smaller hammer and a wooden dowel will usually work. The Lock: The lock looks very much like a locally made one. Maybe "copied" from the Baker pattern? Keep me posted on your progress. Rick.

2nd July 2011, 11:10 PM	#4
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Don't think it's a copied lock, Rick. If it is, it's astoundingly good; the fit and finish of the parts is superb and conforms exactly to what I'd expect of a contemporary British lock, and the stamps and engravings (including the tiny initials of JW (likely Job Wilkes, of Darlaston, Staffordshire, or so I'm told) the lock-maker, on the inside of the lockplate), and the spring is certainly far stronger than any Afghan spring I've yet seen. The hammer I'd agree is a local copy (albeit of very high quality; the throw's not quite right for it to hit the nipple square-on, but the engraving's very good and it's beautifully shaped - even the cross-hatching on the spur is bloody good).

3rd July 2011, 05:31 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	I see what you mean. Yes, agreed. After a closer look at your photos, I'm sure that's an English lock. The J.W., etc. It's just the hammer that appears locally made. Which may be the reason why the hammer is fastened to the lock in that manner. The user probably could not find a screw that matched. Your gun should clean up real nice. I really like the barrel on yours. Rick.