Different types of Peshkabz'

Andrew · 20th July 2005, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

.

Also, seems to me that there is little difference between
a Khayber sword/knife and a Kard other than the T blade
back???

Rich S

I think size is the primary difference, Rich. (Sometimes it does matter.

).

Rich · 20th July 2005, 12:44 PM

Here's a pic of my choora (ex: pesh :-).
Blade 9 inches with very faint remnants of
etching. All steel mounts with silver picque
work in handle.

Leather covered wooden sheath with brass mounts.
It is unusual to have the sheath mounts different
from the knife? I do think they are an original
set given the perfect fit.

Any idea what period or location this might be
from? Definitely not my strong point. Picked it
up a couple years ago just because it was a neat
knife.

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinpic/choora.jpg

Thanks
Rich

Jens Nordlunde · 20th July 2005, 04:32 PM

Hi Rich,

Yes you have a Choora - you may even have both

.
I agree that the Pesh-Kabz is a tricky one, as it seems like Holstein has chosen to call all daggers from NNW India and Afghanistan shown, for Pesh-Kabz.

Now, if we take our old trusty Stone, and read out aloud, here is what he says.

CHOORA. The knife of the Mahsud, a tribe of the Khyber. It is like the Persian peshkabz; but made in the Khyber.

KARUD. Persian, a straight-bladed peshkabz (Moser XII).

KHYPER-KNIFE. I will drop that, as it is irrelevant due to the size.

PESH-KABZ, PESHCUBZ, PESHQABZ. A form of dagger used in Persia and Northern India. The name is Persian and means “foregrip”. The blade is of T section and is quite wide at the hilt, narrowing suddenly just below it, and then tapering regularly to a very slender point. As a rule the blade is straight, but not infrequently has a pronounced reverse curve. The hilt is often of walrus ivory (Persian, shirmani), and is heavy and has neither guard nor pommel. This knife is obviously intended for forcing an opening in a mail; and as a piece of engineering design could hardly be improved uponfor the purpose.

I think the conclusion must be, that all the knives Holstein shows fit to Stone’s description, number three from right less than the others when it comes to the ‘suddenly narrowing’ of the blade, but still. To the Persian name Peshkabz can be added, that many of the knifes had local names, like Karud and Choora, but they are all Peshkabz’s, and what make them this, is the big hilt and the T spine on the blade. But if this is so, why does he call a Choora a Peshkabz, as the Choora’ hilt looks different, besides not having a ‘fat’ hilt?

Funny that Stone writes ‘A form of dagger used in Persia and Northern India’. He must have, as they did in the early days, regarded Afghanistan as being part of India, since he does not mention Afghanistan in particular.

ariel · 21st July 2005, 12:09 AM

Here is an illustration:a small Khyber (blade 15 inch) and a large Karud (blade 12 inch). Both are pretty simple, but Karud is of much better quality. Both have T-spines and bone handles. The blade of Khyber was sharpened so often that is narrowed down a lot. Khyber has an old label attached: beautiful Victorian handwriting, and the ink became brown due to age "Mada Khel" (a place and a tribe in NE Afghanistan. Also, the scabbard has bits and pieces of Arabic, no more than 2-3 letters at a string, the rest faded.
The main difference between the two is in the handles: karud's is 2-3 times thicker. I can barely hold it well. Also, karud has a swivel attached to the handle. It has no hole in it, so it is not for a lanyard. Any ideas? Somehow, I have a gut feeling that Karud is of Uzbeki origin. Just a feeling....

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2005, 04:29 AM

Hi Jens,
Excellent post and great illustration from the very rare Holstein book!
It seems there has long been a great deal of confusion on terminology and categorizing of these highly diffused weapons. I think Artzi has put together one of the most concise glossaries, but again, with such hybridization of these forms it seems more than difficult to be conclusive.

It seems to me that the karud, the primarily sword hilted mail piercing dagger was quite likely, as noted, the inspiration for the pesh kabz. The karud had an abruptly narrowing straight back reinforced blade that was strictly business for mail piercing. These seem to have developed in Persia and Central Asia and diffused into Afghanistan. The smaller choora which appears to be favored in tribal regions in Afghanistan has the same straight back T spined blade and a differently profiled hilt shape, typically with distinct sectioned construction.

The pesh kabz, while its regional disposition is highly diffused and unclear, seems characteristically to have a recurved blade which often, but certainly not always, does have the familiar T spine and sometimes reinforced blade point. The recurved blade on these is very interesting as this form is of course very similar to the bichwa daggers of India. While this term allegedly alludes to the scorpion sting, the shape actually is believed to derive from the buffalo horn, which was actually used in some proto-daggers of this type (Pant, p.153). In many weapons it is fascinating to note how in many cases the interesting forms are simply characterizations fashioned in metal of natures own living weapons from animals. It would seem that the recurve and armor piercing point on the pesh kabz would be in favor of the deadly upward thrust and it would be interesting to know the views of the martially inclined on that.

To add yet another element in the discussion of these various daggers we must also recall the kard, which was a flat bladed knife with straight blade that was highly favored in early Persia, Armenia, Turkey, Central Asia and India with most examples found of 17th-18th c.These occasionally were thickened at the point to pierce mail. It has been suggested that the term karud may derive from kard...possibly the karud itself evolved as a more defined weapon from these? The kard seems to have equal potential for utility use, much as the very similar Bukharen knives of this family, the bytshak.

I think Artzi's observation is well placed in noting that aside from very distinct examples, many of these hybrid forms may be best identified by materials and form of the hilt, as well as motif and markings.

All the best,
Jim

B.I · 21st July 2005, 12:25 PM

hi jim,
eloquent as ever :-)
artzi did offer a great summary but as the issue keeps cropping up, i thought it would be good to uncover all summaries/glossaries in order to reach a general consensus. holstein/stone/hobson are a good start.

irving from the late 19thC -

pesh qabz - the word is from pesh, front, qabz, grip.
it was a pointed one-edged dagger, having generally a thick straight back to the blade, and a straight handle without a guard; though at times the blade was curved, or even double-curved. the peshqabz is not in the ain i, 110-112, so i presume that it was included under one of the other kinds of dagger, perhaps under kard, a knife, No.34 and fig 28. in egerton i find 23 examples. of these there are 7 straight, 4 curved and 2 double-curved blades; the shape of the rest is not stated.

kard - this was like a butchers knife and kept in a sheath. it was mpore especially the weapon of the afghan. (he cites egrton again, pg 144).
this was the sort of weapon with which, on the 8th oct 1720, mir haidar beg, dughlat, assasinated sayyad husain, mir bakhshi, in the emperors camp between fathpur sikri and amber (jaipur). the author of the jauhar-i-samsam calls the weapon then used a chaqchaqi-i-wilayati. this word is realted to a knife (steinglass, from turkish).

not a great help but its good 19thC account, taken from source and from a studied academic view (irving could read both hindi and persian and had access to much material from both languages, as well as english at the height of orientalism and the asiatic society.

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2005, 01:55 AM

Hi Brian,
Thank you so much for the kind comment!!
The notes from Irving are as you have said, most useful as they are contemporary accounts observed by a scholar well versed in these languages and with access to many examples that were often well provenanced.
I agree that it would be a good idea to put together as much of this period material as possible to discover how much of the information corroborates.

While it seems the kard has existed at least in the early 17th century, probably even earlier as it is such a primary form of edged weapon, I am wondering about how early the mail piercing karud and subsequently the pesh kabz may have developed (are there any miniature or other iconographic references that might be chronologically helpful?).I think it would be interesting to discover more on the chain mail and armour worn in these regions that brought the demand for more specialized armour piercing weapons. It is known that Tatar and Russian edged weapons featured such armor piercing blades in the 17th century, possibly these might have had influence?

It would seem that so far we all have a pretty good idea of basic nomenclature and differences of this group of edged weapons and to learn more on thier development may also help us better identify them.

All the best,
Jim

21st July 2005, 12:09 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here is an illustration:a small Khyber (blade 15 inch) and a large Karud (blade 12 inch). Both are pretty simple, but Karud is of much better quality. Both have T-spines and bone handles. The blade of Khyber was sharpened so often that is narrowed down a lot. Khyber has an old label attached: beautiful Victorian handwriting, and the ink became brown due to age "Mada Khel" (a place and a tribe in NE Afghanistan. Also, the scabbard has bits and pieces of Arabic, no more than 2-3 letters at a string, the rest faded. The main difference between the two is in the handles: karud's is 2-3 times thicker. I can barely hold it well. Also, karud has a swivel attached to the handle. It has no hole in it, so it is not for a lanyard. Any ideas? Somehow, I have a gut feeling that Karud is of Uzbeki origin. Just a feeling.... Attached Images

20th July 2005, 12:44 PM	#2
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Here's a pic of my choora (ex: pesh :-). Blade 9 inches with very faint remnants of etching. All steel mounts with silver picque work in handle. Leather covered wooden sheath with brass mounts. It is unusual to have the sheath mounts different from the knife? I do think they are an original set given the perfect fit. Any idea what period or location this might be from? Definitely not my strong point. Picked it up a couple years ago just because it was a neat knife. http://home.earthlink.net/~steinpic/choora.jpg Thanks Rich

20th July 2005, 04:32 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rich, Yes you have a Choora - you may even have both . I agree that the Pesh-Kabz is a tricky one, as it seems like Holstein has chosen to call all daggers from NNW India and Afghanistan shown, for Pesh-Kabz. Now, if we take our old trusty Stone, and read out aloud, here is what he says. CHOORA. The knife of the Mahsud, a tribe of the Khyber. It is like the Persian peshkabz; but made in the Khyber. KARUD. Persian, a straight-bladed peshkabz (Moser XII). KHYPER-KNIFE. I will drop that, as it is irrelevant due to the size. PESH-KABZ, PESHCUBZ, PESHQABZ. A form of dagger used in Persia and Northern India. The name is Persian and means “foregrip”. The blade is of T section and is quite wide at the hilt, narrowing suddenly just below it, and then tapering regularly to a very slender point. As a rule the blade is straight, but not infrequently has a pronounced reverse curve. The hilt is often of walrus ivory (Persian, shirmani), and is heavy and has neither guard nor pommel. This knife is obviously intended for forcing an opening in a mail; and as a piece of engineering design could hardly be improved uponfor the purpose. I think the conclusion must be, that all the knives Holstein shows fit to Stone’s description, number three from right less than the others when it comes to the ‘suddenly narrowing’ of the blade, but still. To the Persian name Peshkabz can be added, that many of the knifes had local names, like Karud and Choora, but they are all Peshkabz’s, and what make them this, is the big hilt and the T spine on the blade. But if this is so, why does he call a Choora a Peshkabz, as the Choora’ hilt looks different, besides not having a ‘fat’ hilt? Funny that Stone writes ‘A form of dagger used in Persia and Northern India’. He must have, as they did in the early days, regarded Afghanistan as being part of India, since he does not mention Afghanistan in particular.

21st July 2005, 04:29 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,276	Hi Jens, Excellent post and great illustration from the very rare Holstein book! It seems there has long been a great deal of confusion on terminology and categorizing of these highly diffused weapons. I think Artzi has put together one of the most concise glossaries, but again, with such hybridization of these forms it seems more than difficult to be conclusive. It seems to me that the karud, the primarily sword hilted mail piercing dagger was quite likely, as noted, the inspiration for the pesh kabz. The karud had an abruptly narrowing straight back reinforced blade that was strictly business for mail piercing. These seem to have developed in Persia and Central Asia and diffused into Afghanistan. The smaller choora which appears to be favored in tribal regions in Afghanistan has the same straight back T spined blade and a differently profiled hilt shape, typically with distinct sectioned construction. The pesh kabz, while its regional disposition is highly diffused and unclear, seems characteristically to have a recurved blade which often, but certainly not always, does have the familiar T spine and sometimes reinforced blade point. The recurved blade on these is very interesting as this form is of course very similar to the bichwa daggers of India. While this term allegedly alludes to the scorpion sting, the shape actually is believed to derive from the buffalo horn, which was actually used in some proto-daggers of this type (Pant, p.153). In many weapons it is fascinating to note how in many cases the interesting forms are simply characterizations fashioned in metal of natures own living weapons from animals. It would seem that the recurve and armor piercing point on the pesh kabz would be in favor of the deadly upward thrust and it would be interesting to know the views of the martially inclined on that. To add yet another element in the discussion of these various daggers we must also recall the kard, which was a flat bladed knife with straight blade that was highly favored in early Persia, Armenia, Turkey, Central Asia and India with most examples found of 17th-18th c.These occasionally were thickened at the point to pierce mail. It has been suggested that the term karud may derive from kard...possibly the karud itself evolved as a more defined weapon from these? The kard seems to have equal potential for utility use, much as the very similar Bukharen knives of this family, the bytshak. I think Artzi's observation is well placed in noting that aside from very distinct examples, many of these hybrid forms may be best identified by materials and form of the hilt, as well as motif and markings. All the best, Jim

21st July 2005, 12:25 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jim, eloquent as ever :-) artzi did offer a great summary but as the issue keeps cropping up, i thought it would be good to uncover all summaries/glossaries in order to reach a general consensus. holstein/stone/hobson are a good start. irving from the late 19thC - pesh qabz - the word is from pesh, front, qabz, grip. it was a pointed one-edged dagger, having generally a thick straight back to the blade, and a straight handle without a guard; though at times the blade was curved, or even double-curved. the peshqabz is not in the ain i, 110-112, so i presume that it was included under one of the other kinds of dagger, perhaps under kard, a knife, No.34 and fig 28. in egerton i find 23 examples. of these there are 7 straight, 4 curved and 2 double-curved blades; the shape of the rest is not stated. kard - this was like a butchers knife and kept in a sheath. it was mpore especially the weapon of the afghan. (he cites egrton again, pg 144). this was the sort of weapon with which, on the 8th oct 1720, mir haidar beg, dughlat, assasinated sayyad husain, mir bakhshi, in the emperors camp between fathpur sikri and amber (jaipur). the author of the jauhar-i-samsam calls the weapon then used a chaqchaqi-i-wilayati. this word is realted to a knife (steinglass, from turkish). not a great help but its good 19thC account, taken from source and from a studied academic view (irving could read both hindi and persian and had access to much material from both languages, as well as english at the height of orientalism and the asiatic society.

22nd July 2005, 01:55 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,276	Hi Brian, Thank you so much for the kind comment!! The notes from Irving are as you have said, most useful as they are contemporary accounts observed by a scholar well versed in these languages and with access to many examples that were often well provenanced. I agree that it would be a good idea to put together as much of this period material as possible to discover how much of the information corroborates. While it seems the kard has existed at least in the early 17th century, probably even earlier as it is such a primary form of edged weapon, I am wondering about how early the mail piercing karud and subsequently the pesh kabz may have developed (are there any miniature or other iconographic references that might be chronologically helpful?).I think it would be interesting to discover more on the chain mail and armour worn in these regions that brought the demand for more specialized armour piercing weapons. It is known that Tatar and Russian edged weapons featured such armor piercing blades in the 17th century, possibly these might have had influence? It would seem that so far we all have a pretty good idea of basic nomenclature and differences of this group of edged weapons and to learn more on thier development may also help us better identify them. All the best, Jim