Different types of Peshkabz'

ariel · 19th July 2005, 06:42 PM

"That old thread was started by you, Ariel, and you made a prophetic comment about forgetting the thread and its information.

Ian."
Rather embarrassing....

Marc · 19th July 2005, 11:52 PM

In fact, maybe I can help...

____________________________

Oriental-Arms, EEWRS forum, 26/12/2003

Choora , Pesh-kabz, Karud and Khyber Sword Here are examples of the whole family:

The major Characteristic of each are as follows:

Khayber Sword : Rather a sword not a dagger. It ranges from 20 to 45 inches in length (The one shown above is 21 inch long, one of the shortest I have seen). Triangular blade with a T spine. Full tang with grip slabs and some times with long metal bolsters. It is very well distributed from North India to Central Asia, but mostly shown up (and properly so called) in Afghanistan.

Karud Primarily a Mail Piercing dagger. 10 -18 inches long (The one shown above is 18 inches). Blade abruptly narrowing at its base, with a pronounced T spine and many times with edge reinforcement rib. Massive handle, one piece or two grips on a full tang. It is well distributed in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Persia and Central Asian Countries. They all show a similar blade and differs mostly in handle materials and scabbard decoration. The one shown above is from Afghanistan, early 19 C.

Pesh-Kabz A development of the Karud, with a re-curving blade and slightly down curving handle, which perfect it to be the best mail piercing blade (my private opinion). Similar blade narrowing at its base, pronounced T spine but sometimes it reaches only half of the blade length as in this case. Reinforced edge and sometimes thickened tip. Two slabs grips. It is well distributed in India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. The one shown above is Mogul Indian 18 C.

Choora This is also a development of the Karud, but usually smaller, 10-12 inches long. Similar blade. It has a very typical handle with grips composed of two or three sectors of metal, ivory, horn or a combination of all, with the pommel tips extending down more than in its brothers. Its distribution is limited to the areas around the borders of todays Pakistan and Afghanistan. The one shown above is late 19 or early 20 C. It should be mentioned that later made such daggers are widely found in various antique arms fairs with a variety of grip materials ranging from wood to modern plastics.

Here is a close-up of the handles:

On purpose I selected all the items with Ivory grips. The grips material (as well as scabbard construction and decoration are the key for these items origin: Whole metal grips in India. Ivory in India, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Walrus in Persia and Central Asia, Rhino horn in Bukhara, Horn in India and Afghanistan etc. it should be however also mentioned that as with many other blades , also here one find in many occasions a combination of all the above: Khayber sword with Choora handles and the like.

-------------------------------

I think that trying to find some kind of (hopefully reasonably well-founded) agreement regarding these definitions may be, at least, a good exercise in analysis and discussion of the different features of each object and their significance. Intrascendent as they may be to the original makers/users/namers of the actual items, definitions are definitely useful to us...

B.I · 20th July 2005, 12:02 AM

hi marc,
glad you stepped in

. this is a good beginning, and i hope we can push it further, past one persons opinion.
as a start - hobsons anology -

PESHCUBZ, s. A form of dagger, the blade of which has a straight thick back, while the edge curves inwardly from a broad base to a very sharp point. Pers. pesh-kabz, ‘fore-grip.’ The handle is usually made of shirmahi, ‘the white bone (tooth?) of a large cetacean’; probably morse-tooth, which is repeatedly mentioned in the early English trade with Persia as an article much in demand (e.g. see Sainsbury, ii. 65, 159, 204, 305; iii. 89, 162, 268, 287, &c.). [The peshkubz appears several times in Mr. Egerton’s Catalogue of Indian Arms, and one is illustrated, Pl. xv. No. 760.]

1767.—

“Received for sundry jewels, &c. … (Rs.) 7326 0 0
Ditto for knife, or peshcubz (misprinted pesheolz) 3500 0 0.”
Lord Clive’s Accounts, in Long, 497.

Rich · 20th July 2005, 02:48 AM

I'm trying to get a pic of what I thought was a peshcubz,
but I find it is a choora. Horn handle with nice pique
work and sheath.

Also, seems to me that there is little difference between
a Khayber sword/knife and a Kard other than the T blade
back???

Rich S

Andrew · 20th July 2005, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

.

Also, seems to me that there is little difference between
a Khayber sword/knife and a Kard other than the T blade
back???

Rich S

I think size is the primary difference, Rich. (Sometimes it does matter.

).

Rich · 20th July 2005, 12:44 PM

Here's a pic of my choora (ex: pesh :-).
Blade 9 inches with very faint remnants of
etching. All steel mounts with silver picque
work in handle.

Leather covered wooden sheath with brass mounts.
It is unusual to have the sheath mounts different
from the knife? I do think they are an original
set given the perfect fit.

Any idea what period or location this might be
from? Definitely not my strong point. Picked it
up a couple years ago just because it was a neat
knife.

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinpic/choora.jpg

Thanks
Rich

Jens Nordlunde · 20th July 2005, 04:32 PM

Hi Rich,

Yes you have a Choora - you may even have both

.
I agree that the Pesh-Kabz is a tricky one, as it seems like Holstein has chosen to call all daggers from NNW India and Afghanistan shown, for Pesh-Kabz.

Now, if we take our old trusty Stone, and read out aloud, here is what he says.

CHOORA. The knife of the Mahsud, a tribe of the Khyber. It is like the Persian peshkabz; but made in the Khyber.

KARUD. Persian, a straight-bladed peshkabz (Moser XII).

KHYPER-KNIFE. I will drop that, as it is irrelevant due to the size.

PESH-KABZ, PESHCUBZ, PESHQABZ. A form of dagger used in Persia and Northern India. The name is Persian and means “foregrip”. The blade is of T section and is quite wide at the hilt, narrowing suddenly just below it, and then tapering regularly to a very slender point. As a rule the blade is straight, but not infrequently has a pronounced reverse curve. The hilt is often of walrus ivory (Persian, shirmani), and is heavy and has neither guard nor pommel. This knife is obviously intended for forcing an opening in a mail; and as a piece of engineering design could hardly be improved uponfor the purpose.

I think the conclusion must be, that all the knives Holstein shows fit to Stone’s description, number three from right less than the others when it comes to the ‘suddenly narrowing’ of the blade, but still. To the Persian name Peshkabz can be added, that many of the knifes had local names, like Karud and Choora, but they are all Peshkabz’s, and what make them this, is the big hilt and the T spine on the blade. But if this is so, why does he call a Choora a Peshkabz, as the Choora’ hilt looks different, besides not having a ‘fat’ hilt?

Funny that Stone writes ‘A form of dagger used in Persia and Northern India’. He must have, as they did in the early days, regarded Afghanistan as being part of India, since he does not mention Afghanistan in particular.

19th July 2005, 06:42 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	"That old thread was started by you, Ariel, and you made a prophetic comment about forgetting the thread and its information. Ian." Rather embarrassing....

19th July 2005, 11:52 PM	#2
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	In fact, maybe I can help... ____________________________ Oriental-Arms, EEWRS forum, 26/12/2003 Choora , Pesh-kabz, Karud and Khyber Sword Here are examples of the whole family: The major Characteristic of each are as follows: *Khayber Sword* : Rather a sword not a dagger. It ranges from 20 to 45 inches in length (The one shown above is 21 inch long, one of the shortest I have seen). Triangular blade with a T spine. Full tang with grip slabs and some times with long metal bolsters. It is very well distributed from North India to Central Asia, but mostly shown up (and properly so called) in Afghanistan. *Karud* Primarily a Mail Piercing dagger. 10 -18 inches long (The one shown above is 18 inches). Blade abruptly narrowing at its base, with a pronounced T spine and many times with edge reinforcement rib. Massive handle, one piece or two grips on a full tang. It is well distributed in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Persia and Central Asian Countries. They all show a similar blade and differs mostly in handle materials and scabbard decoration. The one shown above is from Afghanistan, early 19 C. *Pesh-Kabz* A development of the Karud, with a re-curving blade and slightly down curving handle, which perfect it to be the best mail piercing blade (my private opinion). Similar blade narrowing at its base, pronounced T spine but sometimes it reaches only half of the blade length as in this case. Reinforced edge and sometimes thickened tip. Two slabs grips. It is well distributed in India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. The one shown above is Mogul Indian 18 C. *Choora* This is also a development of the Karud, but usually smaller, 10-12 inches long. Similar blade. It has a very typical handle with grips composed of two or three sectors of metal, ivory, horn or a combination of all, with the pommel tips extending down more than in its brothers. Its distribution is limited to the areas around the borders of todays Pakistan and Afghanistan. The one shown above is late 19 or early 20 C. It should be mentioned that later made such daggers are widely found in various antique arms fairs with a variety of grip materials ranging from wood to modern plastics. Here is a close-up of the handles: On purpose I selected all the items with Ivory grips. The grips material (as well as scabbard construction and decoration are the key for these items origin: Whole metal grips in India. Ivory in India, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Walrus in Persia and Central Asia, Rhino horn in Bukhara, Horn in India and Afghanistan etc. it should be however also mentioned that as with many other blades , also here one find in many occasions a combination of all the above: Khayber sword with Choora handles and the like. ------------------------------- I think that trying to find some kind of (hopefully reasonably well-founded) agreement regarding these definitions may be, at least, a good exercise in analysis and discussion of the different features of each object and their significance. Intrascendent as they may be to the original makers/users/namers of the actual items, definitions are definitely useful to us...

20th July 2005, 12:02 AM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi marc, glad you stepped in . this is a good beginning, and i hope we can push it further, past one persons opinion. as a start - hobsons anology - PESHCUBZ, s. A form of dagger, the blade of which has a straight thick back, while the edge curves inwardly from a broad base to a very sharp point. Pers. pesh-kabz, ‘fore-grip.’ The handle is usually made of shirmahi, ‘the white bone (tooth?) of a large cetacean’; probably morse-tooth, which is repeatedly mentioned in the early English trade with Persia as an article much in demand (e.g. see Sainsbury, ii. 65, 159, 204, 305; iii. 89, 162, 268, 287, &c.). [The peshkubz appears several times in Mr. Egerton’s Catalogue of Indian Arms, and one is illustrated, Pl. xv. No. 760.] 1767.— “Received for sundry jewels, &c. … (Rs.) 7326 0 0 Ditto for knife, or peshcubz (misprinted pesheolz) 3500 0 0.” Lord Clive’s Accounts, in Long, 497.

20th July 2005, 02:48 AM	#4
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	I'm trying to get a pic of what I thought was a peshcubz, but I find it is a choora. Horn handle with nice pique work and sheath. Also, seems to me that there is little difference between a Khayber sword/knife and a Kard other than the T blade back??? Rich S

20th July 2005, 12:44 PM	#6
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Here's a pic of my choora (ex: pesh :-). Blade 9 inches with very faint remnants of etching. All steel mounts with silver picque work in handle. Leather covered wooden sheath with brass mounts. It is unusual to have the sheath mounts different from the knife? I do think they are an original set given the perfect fit. Any idea what period or location this might be from? Definitely not my strong point. Picked it up a couple years ago just because it was a neat knife. http://home.earthlink.net/~steinpic/choora.jpg Thanks Rich

20th July 2005, 04:32 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rich, Yes you have a Choora - you may even have both . I agree that the Pesh-Kabz is a tricky one, as it seems like Holstein has chosen to call all daggers from NNW India and Afghanistan shown, for Pesh-Kabz. Now, if we take our old trusty Stone, and read out aloud, here is what he says. CHOORA. The knife of the Mahsud, a tribe of the Khyber. It is like the Persian peshkabz; but made in the Khyber. KARUD. Persian, a straight-bladed peshkabz (Moser XII). KHYPER-KNIFE. I will drop that, as it is irrelevant due to the size. PESH-KABZ, PESHCUBZ, PESHQABZ. A form of dagger used in Persia and Northern India. The name is Persian and means “foregrip”. The blade is of T section and is quite wide at the hilt, narrowing suddenly just below it, and then tapering regularly to a very slender point. As a rule the blade is straight, but not infrequently has a pronounced reverse curve. The hilt is often of walrus ivory (Persian, shirmani), and is heavy and has neither guard nor pommel. This knife is obviously intended for forcing an opening in a mail; and as a piece of engineering design could hardly be improved uponfor the purpose. I think the conclusion must be, that all the knives Holstein shows fit to Stone’s description, number three from right less than the others when it comes to the ‘suddenly narrowing’ of the blade, but still. To the Persian name Peshkabz can be added, that many of the knifes had local names, like Karud and Choora, but they are all Peshkabz’s, and what make them this, is the big hilt and the T spine on the blade. But if this is so, why does he call a Choora a Peshkabz, as the Choora’ hilt looks different, besides not having a ‘fat’ hilt? Funny that Stone writes ‘A form of dagger used in Persia and Northern India’. He must have, as they did in the early days, regarded Afghanistan as being part of India, since he does not mention Afghanistan in particular.