Unknown Venezian(?) "marine" dagger

[eftihis]

I bought this under the description "Venezian marine dagger". I have never seen something similar, but it is obviouw that the patina of the blade is more than 300-400 years old. Also the end of the blade has a shape that reminds swords with similar finials on engravings on 16th -17th centuries.
Any ideas?

[fernando]

I wouldn't know what it is but ... i find it fascinating !
Hope someone comes up with some info.

[Atlantia]

I'd have said it's a small version of hay or reed knife.


It does look fantastically old though! Interesting thing.

[Jim McDougall]

An extremely unusual piece....looks like a flyssa from Star Trek!!!

Seriously though, I think Gene is pretty close in his observation. In looking into Boccia & Coelho's huge reference "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Milan, 1975), there a two examples of these open handled tool/weapon kinds of edged weapon. Fig. 729 in the book shows one of these with an open handle (suggesting utilitarian application) but with a curious hooklike appendage extending from the pommel. It is basically listed as a short sabre (storta) and noted as from Moriana (a county in Brescia, also included in the Venetian Republic, La Serenissima, in the 18th century) so would correspond in the period likely for the posted item.

The other example is somewhat more like the hilt in the one posted, but the blade simply clipped diagonally at the widened tip. This example is captioned end of the 14th c. and as a 'guisarme' from Parma, but no photos, just a silhouette.

What this translates into to me is that this may well be a fascine knife of sorts, which was actually a tool/weapon of 17th-19th c. usually used by artillery troops. As a tool it served to cut bundles of sticks for lining sides of trenches and emplacements, and doubled of course as a weapon. The serrated edges on this one may be associated with later dentated 'pioneer' swords which had a sawlike appearance.

It is interesting that the guisarme was essentially a polearm which often had a hook like seen on the Moriana example, and often strangely profiled blades much as these tool/weapons often did. As polearms these were often termed 'billhooks' as they had the curious hook from side of blade typically. I just bring that up to show the close association between tool and weapon in many cases.

The example in Boccia & Coelho from Moriana c. 18th c. though listed in thier reference as a tool/weapon, is highly decorated and handsomely made with sharply chiseled features etc. and pierced decoration in blade. This would be well in line with the skilled artisans of Brescia who were well known for thier pierced fretwork in cuphilt rapiers earlier.

I would suggest this may be a fascine knife of probably 17th century, and the 'marine' attribution and 'Venezian' due to the presence of ground troops who served in regular campaigns as well as occasionally in galleys as required. The Venetian gunners were of course the source of the storied 'bombardier stillettos' which were guaged on the blade, and since weapons were prohibited to citizens, many stillettos fashioned accordingly to pass off as in military use. Perhaps these curiously profiled blades in Venetian regions may have been so made to be declared 'tools', or in fact actually issued to artillery support troops. Since Brescia was so far inland, of course these notes are simply speculation suggesting possible reasons in associating these items.

All the best,
Jim

[eftihis]

Jim, fantastic information as always! I didnt know about fascine knifes, thank you! who knows maybe somebody has seen a similar example, but if is not in the Boccia & Coelho's book, i guess its a tough enigma...

[Jim McDougall]

You bet Eftihis!
This one was a fun adventure as I've never seen anything like that either, and its often surprising when a seller assessment is pretty much on target (too many faux paus on ebay etc.). An interesting symbolic note, the fasces which is the old Roman image has almost literally the same root as the fascine knife...the bundle of these sticks with an axe head projecting from it.
I get the idea that these were often pretty much one off, so aside from possibly seldom seen Italian collections, it would be tough to find another I would imagine.....but then, I always hope that someone lurking out there might have one or seen one
Thank you so much for posting this Eftihis,
All the best,
Jim

[fearn]

Hi Jim,

I've been looking at this one and mumbling a lot. The best story I can come up with--not a perfect one, is that it's an artilleryman's knife. Under this interpretation, the tip is there to clear the touch-hole, the cutouts are there as gauges for different diameter balls, for use in sorting them fast.

Best,

F

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Jim,

I've been looking at this one and mumbling a lot. The best story I can come up with--not a perfect one, is that it's an artilleryman's knife. Under this interpretation, the tip is there to clear the touch-hole, the cutouts are there as gauges for different diameter balls, for use in sorting them fast.

Best,

F

Hi Fearn,
Thats some pretty good thinking with that mumbling (which I do a LOT! and looks like we're pretty much on the same page. The fascine knives were indeed used by artillerymen for clearing brush to be bundled to line gun emplacements .
Your note on the use of a knife to clear touch holes is well placed as this was definitely something that needed attention, and actually the unusual stillettos termed 'bombardier stillettos' were carried by gunners of the Venetian army at one time. These had graduated lines with various numerical characters which were presumed to measure the bore of the guns for ammunition, as well as often suggesting measuring powder charge, with it remaining unclear which or of both were correct.
It was illegal for civilians to carry weapons in these times in the Republic of Venice (which included inland Brescia) and often weapons were disguised as these military use examples to account for thier being carried, and the user claimed military attachment.

These stillettos had a needle like blade which fit into the touch hole, and actually served to 'spike' the gun to render it unservicable if capture was imminent.
While the bombardier stillettos seem to have faded from use, these fascine knives remained in use well into the 19th century. Unsure why the undulating edge blade on this one, but it seems many forms of sickle etc. had these kind of blades to increase cutting surface for slashing through vegetation etc.
The cutouts do seem to favor cannon ball sizes though.

Im glad to have someone else who gets as puzzled by these curious ones as much as I do! and its fun to share ideas!!!
Thank you Fearn,

All the best,
Jim

[Billman]

While it is possible this is some sort of fascine knife, a sword type similar to those used in other European countries, I would have thought it much more likey the Venetians would have used the local pattern of roncola or billhook for the task of cutting fascines....

The billhook has been in continual use in Italy (and the surrounding countries) since Roman times, and Italy is the only European country with several makers who still offer a full range of regional patterns - such is the importance of this tool in Italy.....

Two roncole from the Venice area below, these are very similar to those also found in Slovenia and Croatia...

[Billman]

Just had another look at the original tool - the handle is very similar to that on some forms of Italian billhooks (roncole) but also those of agricultural knives....

The overall form is very similar to a US corn knife (for corn read maize) - I know this was grown and cultivated widely in Hungary and other Balkan states (many part of the former Austro Hungarian Empire) - and that specialist knives were used for its harvesting, although in Hungary they often used a billhook used for chopping wood..... was probably also grown in Italy, as it is still a major crop in the Alps of neighbouring France

It may this be an Italian corn knife - but still a very unusual find.....

Below a modern US corn knife (somewhere in my collection I have a much older one with a tapered blade):

[fearn]

Hi Billman,

There's one of these corn knives for sale in a local hardware store. It's a simple bar of steel, one edge sharpened, with a handle on the other end. It's been there awhile, in part because no one grows corn around here, in part because machetes are cheaper and more versatile (and hanging on the next hook over). I have no idea why they have it.

Best,

F

[Billman]

I guess corn knives are still made because the small scale (homestead) farmer prefers this tool to a machete... being a little narrower and lighter, it probably requires a little less energy to swing. After a few days cutting corn, the difference would become noticeable....

On a large scale a combine harvester is now used - but in parts of Italy, the Balkans and Eastern Europe there are still thousands of small scale 'subsistence' farmers.

Manufacturers only make tools, and hardware stores stock them, if there is a market.... The ones you have seen could be old stock, but I guess some firms are still making them...

My hypothesis, still requires proof - one way or another..... but I remain biased towards it being an agricultural tool....

[Dmitry]

I believe I know from whence the wind is blowing regarding the attribution as a Venetian boarding weapon.
This piece is in the Higgins Armory Museum collection, which had been attributed by someone as a 16th c. Venetian boarding sword, an attribution I, personally, find curious, but unlikely.

[Billman]

The Higgins' boarding sword looks like a one-off butchered sword - the vee shaped notches would stop rigging ropes sliding off the blade, but to be honest they do not look sharp enough to actually do the job in one stroke...