Kaskara with French Inscription

stephen wood · 23rd May 2011, 01:12 PM

...just a note on provenance - I acquired the sword from a dealer who bought it at a sale in the North of England. It was covered in rust and patina. He could see that there was some kind of inscription and partially cleaned it. He had expected the inscription to be in Arabic and was surprised to find what he did.

stephen wood · 13th November 2011, 12:15 AM

...while we're waiting for the splendid Arabic script on another kaskara to be translated: I knew this would turn up eventually...

"Sont-ils perdus,

Ces jours où l'on espère,

Où chacun rêve sa chimère,

Les yeux à l'horizon tendus?

Sont-ils perdus?

En vain on guette dans l'espace

Une âme soeur qui passe,

Sont-ils perdus?"

"Jours Perdus", by French chansonnier Gustave Nadaud (1820-93)

The sheet music is dated 1868.

regihis · 13th November 2011, 01:23 AM

Emil Ludwig in his book "The Nile" says that the Mahdi and his men wore swords of the time of Charles V during their raids to the Maghreb - French blade = Crusades? Probably!!!

Dom · 14th November 2011, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regihis

French blade = Crusades? Probably!!!

few chance, to don't said ... hopeless to be in presence of "survivor" of the Middle Ages

the last crusade European was before 1300, and were a mess,
none more later than this date
at this date, the Europeans, have lost ALL their settlements in Middle East
obviously, this sword is not 500 years old, or even the blade

now, I agree with you, if you want to said,
the "Kaskara" (in general) has kept through centuries the style of European swords in Middle-Age

à +

Dom

regihis · 14th November 2011, 07:51 AM

remembering: navigation great until the background had a return of Jerusalem, which I said was that the blade may have been from the invasions of Charles V (1500-1558) to the Maghreb, not me who says it is Emil Ludwig , noting that he lived closer than us in time of the Mahdi

Iain · 14th November 2011, 05:06 PM

The attribution of kaskara having Crusading period blades was a common Victorian assessment based entirely on the somewhat medieval style of the kaskara.

If you manage to find a properly authenticated kaskara blade from the 1500s I'd be interested to see it.

The vast majority of blades are from the 18-19th. Anyways regarding this particular sword all this speculation is really for nothing as the blade is clearly marked as a Clauberg and as the owner (Stephen) clearly states, that name along with the associated marks puts the date of manufacture after 1847.

Dom · 14th November 2011, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regihis

remembering: navigation great until the background had a return of Jerusalem, which I said was that the blade may have been from the invasions of Charles V (1500-1558) to the Maghreb, not me who says it is Emil Ludwig , noting that he lived closer than us in time of the Mahdi

yes ...
but as mentionned clearly by our friend "stephen wood"
(respect, to have found a needle in a haystack - French proverb)

"En vain on guette dans l'espace
Une âme soeur qui passe,
Sont-ils perdus?"
"Jours Perdus", by French chansonnier Gustave Nadaud (1820-93)
The sheet music is dated 1868."
(it is written on the slip, that the author wrote the lyrics and music ...)

the stanzas of this poem was written in the nineteenth century,
that mean, the engraving of the blade cannot be done previously
more, the script used for the engraving,
isn't at all the style used with the sixteenth century, it's much more contemporary
after all the speculation are potential

à +

Dom

Iain · 14th November 2011, 05:53 PM

Even more important than the inscription... the blade is clearly marked as a Clauberg, it's a mid 19th century export pattern. No mystery and no crusades to see here.

Iain · 13th November 2011, 12:32 PM

Very interesting Stephen. I think this opens up the scope of possibilities again, rather than tying the sword to a known historical figure. Seems like the kind of thing any officer or French merchant could be familiar with. For those curious here's the wikipedia link for the composer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Nadaud

Martin Lubojacky · 13th November 2011, 02:02 PM

Just a small notice to the presence of Kaskara and French presence in the region:
Kaskaras were also used throughout the territory of Eritrea, which is bordering current Sudan - on one side, and former French Somalia - current Djibouti, on the other side. Djibouti, "French port", developped to supplying spot, place, where such swords dealers like Garabedian lived.
Regards,
Martin

Jim McDougall · 13th November 2011, 06:27 PM

Well done Stephen!!!
I love it when these threads, especially with these kinds of anomalies come back with new information presented. I agree with Iain, trying to align a weapon directly to a historic figure specifically without documented provenance is usually unlikely, but as Martin has well noted, there are broader and more distinct possibilities in the regions mentioned.

13th November 2011, 12:15 AM	#2
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...while we're waiting for the splendid Arabic script on another kaskara to be translated: I knew this would turn up eventually... "Sont-ils perdus, Ces jours où l'on espère, Où chacun rêve sa chimère, Les yeux à l'horizon tendus? Sont-ils perdus? En vain on guette dans l'espace Une âme soeur qui passe, Sont-ils perdus?" "Jours Perdus", by French chansonnier Gustave Nadaud (1820-93) The sheet music is dated 1868. Attached Images Last edited by stephen wood; 13th November 2011 at 01:24 AM.

23rd May 2011, 01:12 PM	#1
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...just a note on provenance - I acquired the sword from a dealer who bought it at a sale in the North of England. It was covered in rust and patina. He could see that there was some kind of inscription and partially cleaned it. He had expected the inscription to be in Arabic and was surprised to find what he did.

13th November 2011, 01:23 AM	#3
regihis Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 39	Emil Ludwig in his book "The Nile" says that the Mahdi and his men wore swords of the time of Charles V during their raids to the Maghreb - French blade = Crusades? Probably!!!

14th November 2011, 07:51 AM	#5
regihis Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 39	remembering: navigation great until the background had a return of Jerusalem, which I said was that the blade may have been from the invasions of Charles V (1500-1558) to the Maghreb, not me who says it is Emil Ludwig , noting that he lived closer than us in time of the Mahdi

14th November 2011, 05:06 PM	#6
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	The attribution of kaskara having Crusading period blades was a common Victorian assessment based entirely on the somewhat medieval style of the kaskara. If you manage to find a properly authenticated kaskara blade from the 1500s I'd be interested to see it. The vast majority of blades are from the 18-19th. Anyways regarding this particular sword all this speculation is really for nothing as the blade is clearly marked as a Clauberg and as the owner (Stephen) clearly states, that name along with the associated marks puts the date of manufacture after 1847.

14th November 2011, 05:53 PM	#8
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Even more important than the inscription... the blade is clearly marked as a Clauberg, it's a mid 19th century export pattern. No mystery and no crusades to see here.

13th November 2011, 12:32 PM	#9
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Very interesting Stephen. I think this opens up the scope of possibilities again, rather than tying the sword to a known historical figure. Seems like the kind of thing any officer or French merchant could be familiar with. For those curious here's the wikipedia link for the composer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Nadaud

13th November 2011, 02:02 PM	#10
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Just a small notice to the presence of Kaskara and French presence in the region: Kaskaras were also used throughout the territory of Eritrea, which is bordering current Sudan - on one side, and former French Somalia - current Djibouti, on the other side. Djibouti, "French port", developped to supplying spot, place, where such swords dealers like Garabedian lived. Regards, Martin

13th November 2011, 06:27 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Well done Stephen!!! I love it when these threads, especially with these kinds of anomalies come back with new information presented. I agree with Iain, trying to align a weapon directly to a historic figure specifically without documented provenance is usually unlikely, but as Martin has well noted, there are broader and more distinct possibilities in the regions mentioned.