Kaskara with French Inscription

Iain · 20th May 2011, 08:03 AM

My point in mentioning Chad wasn't that the blade should be French - it's clearly German with the inscription added later by a Frenchman as Nicolas pointed it it must have been, but rather my point was I excepted we should look in areas that had French colonial presence to explain the inscription. Not to explain the blade as these German trade blades could be found all over the place and as Dom says didn't result from the colonization and are in fact not uncommon. Sadly I don't think the sword has any regional characteristics that can pin down a geographical location more closely.

That said, I didn't know about the potential link with Rimbaud before and it is a very interesting idea, but just to play devil's advocate, and because I really don't know... Wouldn't a decent percentage of the French officer corp. engaged in the French Sudan have the education to use similar verse? I do think the Rimbaud idea though is quite valid just wondering if the poetry itself is of a nature to rule out other the many other educated Frenchmen in the area... I specifically mentioned Chad over the rest of the French Sudan because this territory would hold the most kaskara using peoples as opposed to modern day Mali or Niger where the takouba was common.

Great discussion guys, looking forward to what else may come to light.

yuanzhumin · 20th May 2011, 09:00 AM

iain,
I think that all the officers in the French army at that time would have the cultural level to write this text on a sword. But not as many would have had the poetic mind to do it ! :-)
In France before the Revolution, aristocratic families were sending at least one of their sons into the army. After, it was difficult to avoid not being incorporated during the first Empire wars, when nearly half of the French male population died or was wounded fighting for Napoleon.
During the 19th cent, these military traditions went on, mostly at the time the French were building a colonial Empire. Fighting for France was largely seen as an honor, and many French intellectuals, authors, poets fought during the many wars we were involved in around the world or in Europe.
Rimbaud's father was a career officer in the French colonial army, Rimbaud himself joined the Dutch army in Indonesia for a short time. Then he lead an adventurous life in Africa, where I'm sure he had to be put in circumstances where he had to fight for his life.
It's certainly not the discipline of the army that attracted the more educated Frenchmen in the army but the adventure, a certain romantism and idealism, or simply the will to defend France when the country was endangered.
Here is a list of the french writers that died for France during the two last world wars only:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_d...pour_la_France
Best
Nicolas

Iain · 20th May 2011, 09:21 AM

Hi Nicolas,

That's what I figured more or less. If only there was a little more to the verses on the sword to tie it to Rimbaud! Might be interesting to see if there's any academics who specialize in his works who might be able to give an opinion if the style fits with Rimbaud? I read that at least some of his letters survive from the period he was in Africa.

Otherwise I have to say, the subject matter seems the sort of thing that would be on most solider's minds! Of course how it is expressed is far more eloquent than the average solider would come up with I'm sure.

Cheers,

Iain

Jim McDougall · 20th May 2011, 06:30 PM

This really is a great discussion, and it really helps to have interactive observations to gain key perspective in evaluating a piece. Stephen, I must say I have been remiss in not acknowledging your input here, which has also been most helpful. I am always grateful for your posting these fascinating examples, and admire your willingness to place them here for us to learn from, and hope our observations are helpful in increasing your knowledge.

As Iain has noted, the fact that this is a German made blade, produced by a well known exporter of these times from Solingen, does correspond with the large number of blades found on kaskara throughout the Sudan. Also, as noted, the addition of this poetic verse in inscription was clearly done by a Frenchman and intended for a French sword. This of course suggests that the weapon was apparantly used by a Frenchman, and either the blade was mounted in Europe before arrival in French regions in Africa (as was sometimes done by Clauberg and other Solingen makers) or it was done by an outfitter in Africa furbishing swords intended for French use. There is no reason why such specifically French verse would be placed on a trade blade intended for other parties, and most certainly not on a blade intended for a Sudanese tribesman.

I am not familiar from Rimbaud, nor in fact had I ever heard of him until this thread, however, it does seem his writing was well known, especially probably among military men as he was military himself. Factor that into the established fact that he dealt in weapons in Abyssinia and probably throughout the region, and it does not seem unreasonable that his verse might appear on a French blade used by a Frenchman in these regions.

While it does seem paradoxical that wistful romantic notions would be in the minds of soldiers on campaign, or for that matter, any men far from home and loved ones in places where they are strangers....it is entirely a matter of fact and well known. Todays generations are more familiar with media driven views of machismo, bravado and coarse violence in action movies etc. though anyone who is a true student of martial arts or actually soldiers in service know that discipline, understanding and many more compassionate and humanistic qualities are at the base of thier actions. That too is paradoxical of course, but well known.
Most men who have been soldiers hold deeply these powerful emotions, and are reluctant to reveal them openly, but in those times, and obviously with the French, it is not at all surprising to see popularly known verse of this kind. As noted by Iain, it is not the kind of thing that would be placed on a blade in the field by a French soldier, but very much the kind of thing that when seen by a soldier, would be heartily accepted and used.

All best regards,
Jim

stephen wood · 23rd May 2011, 01:12 PM

...just a note on provenance - I acquired the sword from a dealer who bought it at a sale in the North of England. It was covered in rust and patina. He could see that there was some kind of inscription and partially cleaned it. He had expected the inscription to be in Arabic and was surprised to find what he did.

stephen wood · 13th November 2011, 12:15 AM

...while we're waiting for the splendid Arabic script on another kaskara to be translated: I knew this would turn up eventually...

"Sont-ils perdus,

Ces jours où l'on espère,

Où chacun rêve sa chimère,

Les yeux à l'horizon tendus?

Sont-ils perdus?

En vain on guette dans l'espace

Une âme soeur qui passe,

Sont-ils perdus?"

"Jours Perdus", by French chansonnier Gustave Nadaud (1820-93)

The sheet music is dated 1868.

regihis · 13th November 2011, 01:23 AM

Emil Ludwig in his book "The Nile" says that the Mahdi and his men wore swords of the time of Charles V during their raids to the Maghreb - French blade = Crusades? Probably!!!

Iain · 13th November 2011, 12:32 PM

Very interesting Stephen. I think this opens up the scope of possibilities again, rather than tying the sword to a known historical figure. Seems like the kind of thing any officer or French merchant could be familiar with. For those curious here's the wikipedia link for the composer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Nadaud

13th November 2011, 12:15 AM	#6
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...while we're waiting for the splendid Arabic script on another kaskara to be translated: I knew this would turn up eventually... "Sont-ils perdus, Ces jours où l'on espère, Où chacun rêve sa chimère, Les yeux à l'horizon tendus? Sont-ils perdus? En vain on guette dans l'espace Une âme soeur qui passe, Sont-ils perdus?" "Jours Perdus", by French chansonnier Gustave Nadaud (1820-93) The sheet music is dated 1868. Attached Images Last edited by stephen wood; 13th November 2011 at 01:24 AM.

20th May 2011, 08:03 AM	#1
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	My point in mentioning Chad wasn't that the blade should be French - it's clearly German with the inscription added later by a Frenchman as Nicolas pointed it it must have been, but rather my point was I excepted we should look in areas that had French colonial presence to explain the inscription. Not to explain the blade as these German trade blades could be found all over the place and as Dom says didn't result from the colonization and are in fact not uncommon. Sadly I don't think the sword has any regional characteristics that can pin down a geographical location more closely. That said, I didn't know about the potential link with Rimbaud before and it is a very interesting idea, but just to play devil's advocate, and because I really don't know... Wouldn't a decent percentage of the French officer corp. engaged in the French Sudan have the education to use similar verse? I do think the Rimbaud idea though is quite valid just wondering if the poetry itself is of a nature to rule out other the many other educated Frenchmen in the area... I specifically mentioned Chad over the rest of the French Sudan because this territory would hold the most kaskara using peoples as opposed to modern day Mali or Niger where the takouba was common. Great discussion guys, looking forward to what else may come to light.

20th May 2011, 09:00 AM	#2
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	iain, I think that all the officers in the French army at that time would have the cultural level to write this text on a sword. But not as many would have had the poetic mind to do it ! :-) In France before the Revolution, aristocratic families were sending at least one of their sons into the army. After, it was difficult to avoid not being incorporated during the first Empire wars, when nearly half of the French male population died or was wounded fighting for Napoleon. During the 19th cent, these military traditions went on, mostly at the time the French were building a colonial Empire. Fighting for France was largely seen as an honor, and many French intellectuals, authors, poets fought during the many wars we were involved in around the world or in Europe. Rimbaud's father was a career officer in the French colonial army, Rimbaud himself joined the Dutch army in Indonesia for a short time. Then he lead an adventurous life in Africa, where I'm sure he had to be put in circumstances where he had to fight for his life. It's certainly not the discipline of the army that attracted the more educated Frenchmen in the army but the adventure, a certain romantism and idealism, or simply the will to defend France when the country was endangered. Here is a list of the french writers that died for France during the two last world wars only: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_d...pour_la_France Best Nicolas

20th May 2011, 09:21 AM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Hi Nicolas, That's what I figured more or less. If only there was a little more to the verses on the sword to tie it to Rimbaud! Might be interesting to see if there's any academics who specialize in his works who might be able to give an opinion if the style fits with Rimbaud? I read that at least some of his letters survive from the period he was in Africa. Otherwise I have to say, the subject matter seems the sort of thing that would be on most solider's minds! Of course how it is expressed is far more eloquent than the average solider would come up with I'm sure. Cheers, Iain

20th May 2011, 06:30 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,285	This really is a great discussion, and it really helps to have interactive observations to gain key perspective in evaluating a piece. Stephen, I must say I have been remiss in not acknowledging your input here, which has also been most helpful. I am always grateful for your posting these fascinating examples, and admire your willingness to place them here for us to learn from, and hope our observations are helpful in increasing your knowledge. As Iain has noted, the fact that this is a German made blade, produced by a well known exporter of these times from Solingen, does correspond with the large number of blades found on kaskara throughout the Sudan. Also, as noted, the addition of this poetic verse in inscription was clearly done by a Frenchman and intended for a French sword. This of course suggests that the weapon was apparantly used by a Frenchman, and either the blade was mounted in Europe before arrival in French regions in Africa (as was sometimes done by Clauberg and other Solingen makers) or it was done by an outfitter in Africa furbishing swords intended for French use. There is no reason why such specifically French verse would be placed on a trade blade intended for other parties, and most certainly not on a blade intended for a Sudanese tribesman. I am not familiar from Rimbaud, nor in fact had I ever heard of him until this thread, however, it does seem his writing was well known, especially probably among military men as he was military himself. Factor that into the established fact that he dealt in weapons in Abyssinia and probably throughout the region, and it does not seem unreasonable that his verse might appear on a French blade used by a Frenchman in these regions. While it does seem paradoxical that wistful romantic notions would be in the minds of soldiers on campaign, or for that matter, any men far from home and loved ones in places where they are strangers....it is entirely a matter of fact and well known. Todays generations are more familiar with media driven views of machismo, bravado and coarse violence in action movies etc. though anyone who is a true student of martial arts or actually soldiers in service know that discipline, understanding and many more compassionate and humanistic qualities are at the base of thier actions. That too is paradoxical of course, but well known. Most men who have been soldiers hold deeply these powerful emotions, and are reluctant to reveal them openly, but in those times, and obviously with the French, it is not at all surprising to see popularly known verse of this kind. As noted by Iain, it is not the kind of thing that would be placed on a blade in the field by a French soldier, but very much the kind of thing that when seen by a soldier, would be heartily accepted and used. All best regards, Jim

23rd May 2011, 01:12 PM	#5
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...just a note on provenance - I acquired the sword from a dealer who bought it at a sale in the North of England. It was covered in rust and patina. He could see that there was some kind of inscription and partially cleaned it. He had expected the inscription to be in Arabic and was surprised to find what he did.

13th November 2011, 01:23 AM	#7
regihis Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 39	Emil Ludwig in his book "The Nile" says that the Mahdi and his men wore swords of the time of Charles V during their raids to the Maghreb - French blade = Crusades? Probably!!!

13th November 2011, 12:32 PM	#8
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Very interesting Stephen. I think this opens up the scope of possibilities again, rather than tying the sword to a known historical figure. Seems like the kind of thing any officer or French merchant could be familiar with. For those curious here's the wikipedia link for the composer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Nadaud