A what is it ? (non weapon)

David · 14th May 2011, 05:47 PM

Given the size of this object i would suggest that it probably had a more utilitarian purpose that to hold prayers. We can really only guess at his point what it's owner kept inside. Could have been writing implements, tobacco, fire starting tool, etc. I can't see that a 7" container would be necessary for carrying paper prayers though...

Gustav · 14th May 2011, 07:10 PM

sorry, I couldn't resist...

Here some information from "Indonesian ornamental design" by van der Hoop, 1949, which still is a reference work for this region, and at least the kris hilt is coming from the neighborhood: the whole shape of this panel he calls a "mirror panel", and it is a chinese motif according to him, mostly found with other, like rock and cloud border, in Cirebon. Of course Ming ceramic is full of this kind of panels.

Of course this motif seems to be of Cetral-Asian origin; China absorbed much from the cultures of this region, particularly in the period of Yuan dynasty, many people in the administration at this time were muslims. Later many of chinese seamen, which participated in the great expeditions were muslims, most famous beeing Zheng He. Indonesian scholar Slamet Muljana writes: "Zheng He built Chinese Muslim communities first in Palembang, then in San Fa (West Kalimantan), subsequently he founded similar communities along the shores of Java, the Malay Peninsula and the Philippines. They preached Islam according to the Hanafi school of thought and in Chinese language."

It probably would be a long shot (as Gavin says

), yet the origin of the motiv IN the panel could most probably be the tree of life, at least regarding kris hilt.

(kris hilt is from: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...579#post120579)

katana · 14th May 2011, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

sorry, I couldn't resist...

It probably would be a long shot (as Gavin says

), yet the origin of the motiv IN the panel could most probably be the tree of life, at least regarding kris hilt.

Excellent info Gustav

....I'm glad you couldn't resist

Thank you

Kind Regards David

katana · 15th May 2011, 02:25 PM

Gustav,
I just want to add that you have brilliantly shown how studying ethnographic weapons is strongly linked to the decoration and manufacture of other ethnographic 'non-weapon' items.....and have , in 'one stroke' validated this thread and enhanced another.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785

Well done

Kind Regards David

Gustav · 15th May 2011, 03:40 PM

David,
thank you very much for the kind words! Actually my posts in both threads are saying almost nothing serious regarding the objects. I just sometimes strongly feel the lack of elementar ethnologistic studies in my life, with some basic rules, understandings ... , a serious collector should be at least amateur ethnologist.

Kind regards,
Gustav

Tim Simmons · 15th May 2011, 04:21 PM

" a serious collector should be at least amateur ethnologist."

Here,here!!!!

katana · 15th May 2011, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

" a serious collector should be at least amateur ethnologist."

Here,here!!!!

Agree totally

14th May 2011, 07:10 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	sorry, I couldn't resist... Here some information from "Indonesian ornamental design" by van der Hoop, 1949, which still is a reference work for this region, and at least the kris hilt is coming from the neighborhood: the whole shape of this panel he calls a "mirror panel", and it is a chinese motif according to him, mostly found with other, like rock and cloud border, in Cirebon. Of course Ming ceramic is full of this kind of panels. Of course this motif seems to be of Cetral-Asian origin; China absorbed much from the cultures of this region, particularly in the period of Yuan dynasty, many people in the administration at this time were muslims. Later many of chinese seamen, which participated in the great expeditions were muslims, most famous beeing Zheng He. Indonesian scholar Slamet Muljana writes: "Zheng He built Chinese Muslim communities first in Palembang, then in San Fa (West Kalimantan), subsequently he founded similar communities along the shores of Java, the Malay Peninsula and the Philippines. They preached Islam according to the Hanafi school of thought and in Chinese language." It probably would be a long shot (as Gavin says ), yet the origin of the motiv IN the panel could most probably be the tree of life, at least regarding kris hilt. (kris hilt is from: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...579#post120579) Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 14th May 2011 at 10:37 PM.

14th May 2011, 05:47 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Given the size of this object i would suggest that it probably had a more utilitarian purpose that to hold prayers. We can really only guess at his point what it's owner kept inside. Could have been writing implements, tobacco, fire starting tool, etc. I can't see that a 7" container would be necessary for carrying paper prayers though...

15th May 2011, 02:25 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Gustav, I just want to add that you have brilliantly shown how studying ethnographic weapons is strongly linked to the decoration and manufacture of other ethnographic 'non-weapon' items.....and have , in 'one stroke' validated this thread and enhanced another. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785 Well done Kind Regards David

15th May 2011, 03:40 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	David, thank you very much for the kind words! Actually my posts in both threads are saying almost nothing serious regarding the objects. I just sometimes strongly feel the lack of elementar ethnologistic studies in my life, with some basic rules, understandings ... , a serious collector should be at least amateur ethnologist. Kind regards, Gustav

15th May 2011, 04:21 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	" a serious collector should be at least amateur ethnologist." Here,here!!!!