Samoan question

[ausjulius]

it is based off a weapon from the 19th century produced in polynesia made from very long hack blad,
these have a hook on the back for hanging the item and for moving chopped materials and pulling brush out of the way... the same style of knife is still very popular in the apls with or without the hook the cutitng edge is not on the hooked side and the hook is not a broad beak like a billhook but more like a steel rod..
swiss arm used to issue them both with the hook and without..

interestingly i saw one the other day in decent condition sell for 100$
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...T#ht_500wt_922

[fearn]

Originally Posted by ausjulius

it is based off a weapon from the 19th century produced in polynesia made from very long hack blad,
these have a hook on the back for hanging the item and for moving chopped materials and pulling brush out of the way... the same style of knife is still very popular in the apls with or without the hook the cutitng edge is not on the hooked side and the hook is not a broad beak like a billhook but more like a steel rod..
swiss arm used to issue them both with the hook and without..

interestingly i saw one the other day in decent condition sell for 100$
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...T#ht_500wt_922

Which came first? I thought those blades you describe imitated the nifu oti, not vice versa. That design is currently used in the Samoan fire knife.

I'd also add that, if you're looking for animal inspiration, a pig's tusk is a reasonable facsimile for that front hook on the nifu oti, but I could just as easily believe that it was originally inspired by a bend in a branch. Someone may have thought, "wow, that looks good for adding weight on the front and hooking things out of the way. Hmmmmm."

Best,

F

[VANDOO]

UNFORTUNATELY WHEN ANOTHER CULTURE LOOKS AT THE TOOLS, WEAPONS OR ARTEFACTS OF A NEW CULTURE THEY OFTEN TRY TO ASSOCIATE IT WITH SOMETHING THEY ARE FAMILIAR WITH. SUCH AS THE CLUB LOOKS LIKE A GUNSTOCK, BILLHOOK OR WHALERS FLENCING TOOL, NOT TAKEING INTO CONSIDERATION THE NATIVE PEOPLE HAVE NEVER SEEN EITHER ONE.
THE ISLANDERS NO DOUBT TOOK THEIR INSPIRATION FROM SOMETHING THEY SAW WHERE THEY LIVED.THERE ARE MANY FORMS IN NATURE TO DRAW FROM, MANY FORMS ARE SAID IN NATIVE TRADITION TO HAVE ORIGINATED FROM FLOWERS AND FRUIT AS WELL AS THE ANIMAL KINGDOM. SEE PICTURES OF 3 SPIKEY FLOWERS FOUND IN THE ISLANDS.
SEVERAL CLUB PICTURES ONE WITH A EXTREME BACK SPIKE, I SUSPECT THE BACK SPIKE WAS USED FOR SOME CEREMONIAL PURPOSE AS IT DID NOT ADD TO THE EFFECTIVE USE OF A WAR CLUB. PERHAPS FOR HANGING, DANCING OR EVEN CARRING A TAILSMAN OR HEAD OF A FALLEN ENEMY. NOTE I DON'T REMEMBER READING IF SAMOANS TOOK HEADS
ONE PICTURE IS OF 3 TOOTHED FORMS OF SAMOAN CLUBS AND ANOTHER IS AN EARLY EXAMPLE WITH NO SPIKES A SAILOR WOULD NO DOUBT HAVE THOUGHT IT LOOKED LIKE A PEG LEG. THE SECOND CLUB PICTURE THE ONE WITH NO SPIKES REMINDS ME OF THE CEREMONIAL STILTS CARVED AND USED IN THE MARQUESAS NOT A PEG LEG.
THE FIRE KNIFE DANCES DID EVOLVE FROM THE CLUB AND SUBSEQUENT LONG KNIFE WITH TRADITIONAL BACKSPIKE. I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THE CLUBS WERE ALREADY IN USE BEFORE OUTSIDE CONTACT WAS MADE WITH EUROPEANS.

[Tim Simmons]

Barry, those pictures from ebay, Samoan clubs from a German publication { you always find really good publications in German rather like there cars } I think they rather kill the the idea that they orginate outside of Samoan culture. Aspects I see on many examples seem so not like a bilhook or blubber knife. For one is the teeth, also with the "Nifo oti" on many, one side is convex the other concave and along with generally massive size I just do not really see a knife form. The pictures show this although there is a convergance of concave shaping to the hook tip. The picture of an example Barry has post from a museum in Israel is dispalying the concave side, which is always on the same side of the club.

[fearn]

Vandoo,

I won't argue that gingers are Samoan (see attached pic for wild ginger), but the Helliconias came from South America and the Bird of Paradise from South Africa. The Pacific Islands have a lot of invasives and things that people have planted. The fact that you see it there now does not mean it was there 200 years ago.

Best,

F

Source: pic from http://www.terragalleria.com/parks/n....npsa3808.html

[ausjulius]

i think the wooden club shape came first and some enterprising capatilist noticed they looke dlike some forms of billhook and hack knife in europe purchased these and sold them as weapons further altering the club designs to more mimmic the new weapons form.. but surly the hooked club has been around in most polynesian cultures for a 1000snd years

[Billman]

Again it is probably just a coincidence, but one based on the same principles of what we would today call ergonomic design, i.e. form follows function...

There are similarly shaped billhooks found in England, Germany and Austria with a hook on the back to pull the next piece of wood towards the user. None of these were intended as weapons, but similar designs became incorporated into medieval pole arms in order to pull a rider from his horse...

African ceremonial weapons shaped like billhooks can also be found, and also ceremonial and status items such as the Mangbetu trombash, which to all intents and puposes looks and feels like a billhook - but everyone states they are weapons (throwing knives) or ceremonial/status/moneraty items, not tools (but I would be interested to know what tools they cut wood with, harvested corn, or made their huts with..) - sorry I digress...

I have noticed the similarities between the wooden Samoan and other cultures' clubs and billhooks - but I guess most European ethnologists were familiar with the billhook, and thus said they were 'billhook shaped' and not copied from a European billhook...