Samoan question

fearn · 5th May 2011, 05:00 AM

Hi Tim,

A couple of suggestions. The teeth are functional in that they concentrate the force of the blow. Here's a couple of suggestions for what inspired them:

1) sharks. This should be self-explanatory. This is probably the primary inspiration for the teeth, IMHO.

2) Sawfish bills. I find no mention of sawfish native to Samoa, but these animals apparently do get to Vanuatu, or 1100 nautical miles away, and sawfish bills are weapons all along the western edge of the Pacific

3) Kiribati shark-toothed weapons. Kiribati is about 1200 nautical miles from Samoa, and I *think* they occasionally got into western Polynesia.

Best,

F

ausjulius · 5th May 2011, 06:14 AM

it is based off a weapon from the 19th century produced in polynesia made from very long hack blad,
these have a hook on the back for hanging the item and for moving chopped materials and pulling brush out of the way... the same style of knife is still very popular in the apls with or without the hook the cutitng edge is not on the hooked side and the hook is not a broad beak like a billhook but more like a steel rod..
swiss arm used to issue them both with the hook and without..

interestingly i saw one the other day in decent condition sell for 100$
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...T#ht_500wt_922

fearn · 5th May 2011, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausjulius

it is based off a weapon from the 19th century produced in polynesia made from very long hack blad,
these have a hook on the back for hanging the item and for moving chopped materials and pulling brush out of the way... the same style of knife is still very popular in the apls with or without the hook the cutitng edge is not on the hooked side and the hook is not a broad beak like a billhook but more like a steel rod..
swiss arm used to issue them both with the hook and without..

interestingly i saw one the other day in decent condition sell for 100$
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...T#ht_500wt_922

Which came first? I thought those blades you describe imitated the nifu oti, not vice versa. That design is currently used in the Samoan fire knife.

I'd also add that, if you're looking for animal inspiration, a pig's tusk is a reasonable facsimile for that front hook on the nifu oti, but I could just as easily believe that it was originally inspired by a bend in a branch. Someone may have thought, "wow, that looks good for adding weight on the front and hooking things out of the way. Hmmmmm."

Best,

F

VANDOO · 5th May 2011, 05:48 PM

UNFORTUNATELY WHEN ANOTHER CULTURE LOOKS AT THE TOOLS, WEAPONS OR ARTEFACTS OF A NEW CULTURE THEY OFTEN TRY TO ASSOCIATE IT WITH SOMETHING THEY ARE FAMILIAR WITH. SUCH AS THE CLUB LOOKS LIKE A GUNSTOCK, BILLHOOK OR WHALERS FLENCING TOOL, NOT TAKEING INTO CONSIDERATION THE NATIVE PEOPLE HAVE NEVER SEEN EITHER ONE.
THE ISLANDERS NO DOUBT TOOK THEIR INSPIRATION FROM SOMETHING THEY SAW WHERE THEY LIVED.THERE ARE MANY FORMS IN NATURE TO DRAW FROM, MANY FORMS ARE SAID IN NATIVE TRADITION TO HAVE ORIGINATED FROM FLOWERS AND FRUIT AS WELL AS THE ANIMAL KINGDOM. SEE PICTURES OF 3 SPIKEY FLOWERS FOUND IN THE ISLANDS.
SEVERAL CLUB PICTURES ONE WITH A EXTREME BACK SPIKE, I SUSPECT THE BACK SPIKE WAS USED FOR SOME CEREMONIAL PURPOSE AS IT DID NOT ADD TO THE EFFECTIVE USE OF A WAR CLUB. PERHAPS FOR HANGING, DANCING OR EVEN CARRING A TAILSMAN OR HEAD OF A FALLEN ENEMY. NOTE I DON'T REMEMBER READING IF SAMOANS TOOK HEADS

ONE PICTURE IS OF 3 TOOTHED FORMS OF SAMOAN CLUBS AND ANOTHER IS AN EARLY EXAMPLE WITH NO SPIKES A SAILOR WOULD NO DOUBT HAVE THOUGHT IT LOOKED LIKE A PEG LEG.

THE SECOND CLUB PICTURE THE ONE WITH NO SPIKES REMINDS ME OF THE CEREMONIAL STILTS CARVED AND USED IN THE MARQUESAS NOT A PEG LEG.
THE FIRE KNIFE DANCES DID EVOLVE FROM THE CLUB AND SUBSEQUENT LONG KNIFE WITH TRADITIONAL BACKSPIKE. I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THE CLUBS WERE ALREADY IN USE BEFORE OUTSIDE CONTACT WAS MADE WITH EUROPEANS.

Tim Simmons · 5th May 2011, 10:04 PM

Barry, those pictures from ebay, Samoan clubs from a German publication { you always find really good publications in German rather like there cars

} I think they rather kill the the idea that they orginate outside of Samoan culture. Aspects I see on many examples seem so not like a bilhook or blubber knife. For one is the teeth, also with the "Nifo oti" on many, one side is convex the other concave and along with generally massive size I just do not really see a knife form. The pictures show this although there is a convergance of concave shaping to the hook tip. The picture of an example Barry has post from a museum in Israel is dispalying the concave side, which is always on the same side of the club.

fearn · 5th May 2011, 10:16 PM

Vandoo,

I won't argue that gingers are Samoan (see attached pic for wild ginger), but the Helliconias came from South America and the Bird of Paradise from South Africa. The Pacific Islands have a lot of invasives and things that people have planted. The fact that you see it there now does not mean it was there 200 years ago.

Best,

F

Source: pic from http://www.terragalleria.com/parks/n....npsa3808.html

ausjulius · 6th May 2011, 02:46 AM

i think the wooden club shape came first and some enterprising capatilist noticed they looke dlike some forms of billhook and hack knife in europe purchased these and sold them as weapons further altering the club designs to more mimmic the new weapons form.. but surly the hooked club has been around in most polynesian cultures for a 1000snd years

5th May 2011, 05:00 AM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, A couple of suggestions. The teeth are functional in that they concentrate the force of the blow. Here's a couple of suggestions for what inspired them: 1) sharks. This should be self-explanatory. This is probably the primary inspiration for the teeth, IMHO. 2) Sawfish bills. I find no mention of sawfish native to Samoa, but these animals apparently do get to Vanuatu, or 1100 nautical miles away, and sawfish bills are weapons all along the western edge of the Pacific 3) Kiribati shark-toothed weapons. Kiribati is about 1200 nautical miles from Samoa, and I think they occasionally got into western Polynesia. Best, F Last edited by fearn; 5th May 2011 at 10:12 PM.

5th May 2011, 05:48 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	UNFORTUNATELY WHEN ANOTHER CULTURE LOOKS AT THE TOOLS, WEAPONS OR ARTEFACTS OF A NEW CULTURE THEY OFTEN TRY TO ASSOCIATE IT WITH SOMETHING THEY ARE FAMILIAR WITH. SUCH AS THE CLUB LOOKS LIKE A GUNSTOCK, BILLHOOK OR WHALERS FLENCING TOOL, NOT TAKEING INTO CONSIDERATION THE NATIVE PEOPLE HAVE NEVER SEEN EITHER ONE. THE ISLANDERS NO DOUBT TOOK THEIR INSPIRATION FROM SOMETHING THEY SAW WHERE THEY LIVED.THERE ARE MANY FORMS IN NATURE TO DRAW FROM, MANY FORMS ARE SAID IN NATIVE TRADITION TO HAVE ORIGINATED FROM FLOWERS AND FRUIT AS WELL AS THE ANIMAL KINGDOM. SEE PICTURES OF 3 SPIKEY FLOWERS FOUND IN THE ISLANDS. SEVERAL CLUB PICTURES ONE WITH A EXTREME BACK SPIKE, I SUSPECT THE BACK SPIKE WAS USED FOR SOME CEREMONIAL PURPOSE AS IT DID NOT ADD TO THE EFFECTIVE USE OF A WAR CLUB. PERHAPS FOR HANGING, DANCING OR EVEN CARRING A TAILSMAN OR HEAD OF A FALLEN ENEMY. NOTE I DON'T REMEMBER READING IF SAMOANS TOOK HEADS ONE PICTURE IS OF 3 TOOTHED FORMS OF SAMOAN CLUBS AND ANOTHER IS AN EARLY EXAMPLE WITH NO SPIKES A SAILOR WOULD NO DOUBT HAVE THOUGHT IT LOOKED LIKE A PEG LEG. THE SECOND CLUB PICTURE THE ONE WITH NO SPIKES REMINDS ME OF THE CEREMONIAL STILTS CARVED AND USED IN THE MARQUESAS NOT A PEG LEG. THE FIRE KNIFE DANCES DID EVOLVE FROM THE CLUB AND SUBSEQUENT LONG KNIFE WITH TRADITIONAL BACKSPIKE. I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THE CLUBS WERE ALREADY IN USE BEFORE OUTSIDE CONTACT WAS MADE WITH EUROPEANS. Attached Images

5th May 2011, 10:04 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,866	Barry, those pictures from ebay, Samoan clubs from a German publication { you always find really good publications in German rather like there cars } I think they rather kill the the idea that they orginate outside of Samoan culture. Aspects I see on many examples seem so not like a bilhook or blubber knife. For one is the teeth, also with the "Nifo oti" on many, one side is convex the other concave and along with generally massive size I just do not really see a knife form. The pictures show this although there is a convergance of concave shaping to the hook tip. The picture of an example Barry has post from a museum in Israel is dispalying the concave side, which is always on the same side of the club. Attached Images

5th May 2011, 10:16 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Vandoo, I won't argue that gingers are Samoan (see attached pic for wild ginger), but the Helliconias came from South America and the Bird of Paradise from South Africa. The Pacific Islands have a lot of invasives and things that people have planted. The fact that you see it there now does not mean it was there 200 years ago. Best, F Source: pic from http://www.terragalleria.com/parks/n....npsa3808.html Attached Images

5th May 2011, 06:14 AM	#2
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 450	it is based off a weapon from the 19th century produced in polynesia made from very long hack blad, these have a hook on the back for hanging the item and for moving chopped materials and pulling brush out of the way... the same style of knife is still very popular in the apls with or without the hook the cutitng edge is not on the hooked side and the hook is not a broad beak like a billhook but more like a steel rod.. swiss arm used to issue them both with the hook and without.. interestingly i saw one the other day in decent condition sell for 100$ http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...T#ht_500wt_922

6th May 2011, 02:46 AM	#7
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 450	i think the wooden club shape came first and some enterprising capatilist noticed they looke dlike some forms of billhook and hack knife in europe purchased these and sold them as weapons further altering the club designs to more mimmic the new weapons form.. but surly the hooked club has been around in most polynesian cultures for a 1000snd years