Bhutan sword with chromed blade: advice needed

katana · 4th May 2011, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Thats a very interesting thought Alan.
Reverse electro-plating. I know a chap who uses a similar process of reverse electrolosis to remove Verdi Gris from ancient coins while his is on archeological digs. He's made a 'kit' that works off of the car cigarette lighter (with a jam-jar of something to dip the coin and electrodes in I think) I wonder if a home kit could be made for removing chrome/nickel?

I'll be seeing him this weekend, I'll see if he has any idea of how it could be adapted.

Best
Gene

Hi Gene,
found this on an engineering forum........

The proceedure is very much the same as removing rust but with different chemical. First, degrease completely and scrub thoroughly with detergent. Mix 1 cup of Muriatic acid with 3 gallons of water in a plastic bucket. NOTE; ALWAYS ADD ACID TO WATER. NEVER WATER TO ACID !!! (It WILL explode) Hang two or three copper wires (#12 or larger) around sides of bucket. Connect these to ground of battery charger. Hang item to be dechromed in fluid with positive lead connected. Be sure part doesn"t touch ground wires. Within a few seconds or minutes, depending on thickness of chrome, it should come clean. More or less time as required. When finnished, wash parts in mild soda water solution to nutralize acid. (Do this right way to prevent rust) As with any caustic acid, handle with care.

I would add that the fumes are 'unhealthy'

so should be done in a well ventilated area.

I should also add that by lowering the concentration of acid, the de-chroming would be slower and more controlable.

Kind Regards David

Atlantia · 4th May 2011, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Gene,
found this on an engineering forum........

The proceedure is very much the same as removing rust but with different chemical. First, degrease completely and scrub thoroughly with detergent. Mix 1 cup of Muriatic acid with 3 gallons of water in a plastic bucket. NOTE; ALWAYS ADD ACID TO WATER. NEVER WATER TO ACID !!! (It WILL explode) Hang two or three copper wires (#12 or larger) around sides of bucket. Connect these to ground of battery charger. Hang item to be dechromed in fluid with positive lead connected. Be sure part doesn"t touch ground wires. Within a few seconds or minutes, depending on thickness of chrome, it should come clean. More or less time as required. When finnished, wash parts in mild soda water solution to nutralize acid. (Do this right way to prevent rust) As with any caustic acid, handle with care.

I would add that the fumes are 'unhealthy'

so should be done in a well ventilated area.

I should also add that by lowering the concentration of acid, the de-chroming would be slower and more controlable.

Kind Regards David

Excellent! Did I mention that whoever finds the details needs to be the first to try it?

Gene

Tatyana Dianova · 4th May 2011, 08:05 PM

Alex: thanks for sharing the pictures; they illustrate very well what Alan says. I believe you've used electrolytic method? It looks promising but I would better find a specialist...
Alan: I was almost sure I should leave the blade as it is, but now...
And to illustrate the Dennee's point about the pommel decoration a couple of pictures of the older piece. White metal mounts, recycled sword blade

A. G. Maisey · 5th May 2011, 02:06 AM

Here are pics of a knife that came to me more than 40 years ago as a piece of junk --- no hilt plates, no guard, no pommel, badly chromed blade.

I got rid of the chrome by giving it to a plater as described.

I gave it a rough polish , rehilted, gave it a sheath, and used it to kill pigs that we ran down up in the Moree lignum.

It is not wootz, nor mechanical damascus, but it does have a folded and welded blade that holds a very good edge and has high tensile strength.

Atlantia · 5th May 2011, 06:23 PM

Tatyana,

I thought these might interest you, notice in particular the gold areas on the silver parts of the dagger hilt:
Page 185 swords and Hilt weapons.
'Eighteenth century dagger and scabbard, possibly Bhutanese, and a sword and scabbard possibly of eighteenth century date. The latter are decorated in the Tibetan 'plain style'; the Bhutanese attribution is purely conventional.'

dennee · 6th May 2011, 12:22 AM

Contrary to "Swords and Hilt Weapons," I've never bought that the attribution is "purely conventional." Nor would I necessarily call those "Tibetan plain style," whatever that might be (and it might be a lot of things), especially since one is not plain. But while the plainer one has a Bhutanese-style hilt, overall its form does look similar to knives that were common in Lhoka, the Tibetan province north of the Bhutan border.

Sure, the two may not be provenanced, but I think there's pretty clearly a Bhutanese style distinct from styles of central Kham, southern Kham, and Amdo. Without settling or being able to settle whether "Bhutanese"-style swords, knives and scabbards were ever produced in Tibet proper (and they were certainly imported), it's pretty clear that they were produced in Bhutan.

Those two examples have scabbards or sheaths similar to most Tibetan scabbards in that they consist of an outside U frame within which a couple of thin slats of wood, covered with fabric usually, form the sides. But the C-shaped scroll at the toe of the scabbard shows up in these kind of Bhutanese dagger scabbards all the time, typically accompanying a profusion of pierced work. And I don't think that, without evidence to the contrary, these pommels could be called anything other than Bhutanese. Bhutanese pommels themselves were a valuable item.

sta94 · 8th May 2011, 07:42 AM

Tatyana, thanks for sharing your sword pics, I saw it for sale and was very tempted too. Denee, some great information you posted, thanks! My wife is Bhutanese and I've spent some time in Bhutan, picked up a few swords and knives here & there, old & new. From what I've seen over there, yes, traditional swords are still being made, although I have yet to see a new laminated blade like the old ones. These swords are still the badges of rank for government officials above a certain rank, and in the recent past, the numbers of officials allowed to wear such swords as badges (along with different colored scarves) have risen quite a bit.

There are still a lot of high-quality old swords in the possession of royalty (obviously!), nobility, old families, etc. These are very highly-regarded and are passed down to the next generation with much pride and reverence. Quite a few antique swords being carried today by high-ranking ministers from old families, nobility, etc. that have seen action during their great-grandfather's time as recently as late-19th century - and in many cases, the current owners know their swords' history, or atleast know that their relative carried this sword in action back in the day. I know about more than one high-ranked official today who is well-known as antique sword collectors. People with old swords and in need of funds know who to approach!

It is not uncommon to see old blades with their original hilt and scabbard, as well as old blades with newer hilts and scabbards and vice versa, older hilt and scabbards adorning newer blades. I've also seen quite a few swords like yours, Tatyana (have two myself) - decent hilt and scabbard with new-looking shiny blades. A number of government officials carry this type of newer traditional swords - including many lower-to-mid-ranking ones. This is not to say they might not have older swords, but many are presented these new swords, along with appropriate rank scarves when appointed to their offices.

Good point Denee brings about the worksmanship - the better quality older swords & fittings have a distinct worksmanship vs. even the top quality present-day worksmanship, and some of the present day worksmanship is pretty good!

You'll also see quite a few of these swords being sold in arts & handicraft stores in the capital Thimphu, as well as in other towns frequented by well-heeled tourists (and most tourists visiting Bhutan are the "well-heeled" type). Most look pretty decent at first glance - the hilt & scabbard - but you take them out and the blades are horrible - sometimes thin as cardboard, other times just a bar of steel, with crude hammer marks on them, etc. This is not to say all are disappointing, I've seen a few that are very well made and displayed with much pride. When I asked some shop-owners they said some of the fittings (hilt, scabbard, etc.) are made in Bhutan while others are made in nearby Kalimpong (in Darjeeling district of India), a town renowned for its Tibetan handicraft artisans, who make these swords/sword-parts based on Bhutanese designs - all specifically for the Bhutanese market. Incidentally, a number of these handicraft stores in Bhutan are run by Tibetan-Bhutanese, so them getting stuff made by fellow Tibetans outside Bhutan isn't such a surprise. Thankfully, I've not found these being advertised as antiques. It's also not uncommon to find decent quality older swords being sold in such stores - ones with nice laminated blades, etc. but the store-owners know the value of these swords and honestly, they're right up there in price with what you'll find in the West - infact in some cases, it may be more expensive to purchase an older sword in such stores in Bhutan than through a reputable seller in the West!!!

Sorry for the rambling, disjointed post - I'm just putting down stuff I picked up on while in Bhutan, as well as what I've read in books & online, particularly Phuntsho Rapten's article, "Patag the symbol of heroes" (which I'm sure most of you have read as well) - incidentally I've been meaning to pin down this individual and talk to him in detail, maybe someday in the future ...

4th May 2011, 08:05 PM	#3
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 736	Alex: thanks for sharing the pictures; they illustrate very well what Alan says. I believe you've used electrolytic method? It looks promising but I would better find a specialist... Alan: I was almost sure I should leave the blade as it is, but now... And to illustrate the Dennee's point about the pommel decoration a couple of pictures of the older piece. White metal mounts, recycled sword blade Attached Images

5th May 2011, 02:06 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Here are pics of a knife that came to me more than 40 years ago as a piece of junk --- no hilt plates, no guard, no pommel, badly chromed blade. I got rid of the chrome by giving it to a plater as described. I gave it a rough polish , rehilted, gave it a sheath, and used it to kill pigs that we ran down up in the Moree lignum. It is not wootz, nor mechanical damascus, but it does have a folded and welded blade that holds a very good edge and has high tensile strength. Attached Images

5th May 2011, 06:23 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Tatyana, I thought these might interest you, notice in particular the gold areas on the silver parts of the dagger hilt: Page 185 swords and Hilt weapons. 'Eighteenth century dagger and scabbard, possibly Bhutanese, and a sword and scabbard possibly of eighteenth century date. The latter are decorated in the Tibetan 'plain style'; the Bhutanese attribution is purely conventional.' Attached Images

6th May 2011, 12:22 AM	#6
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Contrary to "Swords and Hilt Weapons," I've never bought that the attribution is "purely conventional." Nor would I necessarily call those "Tibetan plain style," whatever that might be (and it might be a lot of things), especially since one is not plain. But while the plainer one has a Bhutanese-style hilt, overall its form does look similar to knives that were common in Lhoka, the Tibetan province north of the Bhutan border. Sure, the two may not be provenanced, but I think there's pretty clearly a Bhutanese style distinct from styles of central Kham, southern Kham, and Amdo. Without settling or being able to settle whether "Bhutanese"-style swords, knives and scabbards were ever produced in Tibet proper (and they were certainly imported), it's pretty clear that they were produced in Bhutan. Those two examples have scabbards or sheaths similar to most Tibetan scabbards in that they consist of an outside U frame within which a couple of thin slats of wood, covered with fabric usually, form the sides. But the C-shaped scroll at the toe of the scabbard shows up in these kind of Bhutanese dagger scabbards all the time, typically accompanying a profusion of pierced work. And I don't think that, without evidence to the contrary, these pommels could be called anything other than Bhutanese. Bhutanese pommels themselves were a valuable item.

8th May 2011, 07:42 AM	#7
sta94 Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 16	Tatyana, thanks for sharing your sword pics, I saw it for sale and was very tempted too. Denee, some great information you posted, thanks! My wife is Bhutanese and I've spent some time in Bhutan, picked up a few swords and knives here & there, old & new. From what I've seen over there, yes, traditional swords are still being made, although I have yet to see a new laminated blade like the old ones. These swords are still the badges of rank for government officials above a certain rank, and in the recent past, the numbers of officials allowed to wear such swords as badges (along with different colored scarves) have risen quite a bit. There are still a lot of high-quality old swords in the possession of royalty (obviously!), nobility, old families, etc. These are very highly-regarded and are passed down to the next generation with much pride and reverence. Quite a few antique swords being carried today by high-ranking ministers from old families, nobility, etc. that have seen action during their great-grandfather's time as recently as late-19th century - and in many cases, the current owners know their swords' history, or atleast know that their relative carried this sword in action back in the day. I know about more than one high-ranked official today who is well-known as antique sword collectors. People with old swords and in need of funds know who to approach! It is not uncommon to see old blades with their original hilt and scabbard, as well as old blades with newer hilts and scabbards and vice versa, older hilt and scabbards adorning newer blades. I've also seen quite a few swords like yours, Tatyana (have two myself) - decent hilt and scabbard with new-looking shiny blades. A number of government officials carry this type of newer traditional swords - including many lower-to-mid-ranking ones. This is not to say they might not have older swords, but many are presented these new swords, along with appropriate rank scarves when appointed to their offices. Good point Denee brings about the worksmanship - the better quality older swords & fittings have a distinct worksmanship vs. even the top quality present-day worksmanship, and some of the present day worksmanship is pretty good! You'll also see quite a few of these swords being sold in arts & handicraft stores in the capital Thimphu, as well as in other towns frequented by well-heeled tourists (and most tourists visiting Bhutan are the "well-heeled" type). Most look pretty decent at first glance - the hilt & scabbard - but you take them out and the blades are horrible - sometimes thin as cardboard, other times just a bar of steel, with crude hammer marks on them, etc. This is not to say all are disappointing, I've seen a few that are very well made and displayed with much pride. When I asked some shop-owners they said some of the fittings (hilt, scabbard, etc.) are made in Bhutan while others are made in nearby Kalimpong (in Darjeeling district of India), a town renowned for its Tibetan handicraft artisans, who make these swords/sword-parts based on Bhutanese designs - all specifically for the Bhutanese market. Incidentally, a number of these handicraft stores in Bhutan are run by Tibetan-Bhutanese, so them getting stuff made by fellow Tibetans outside Bhutan isn't such a surprise. Thankfully, I've not found these being advertised as antiques. It's also not uncommon to find decent quality older swords being sold in such stores - ones with nice laminated blades, etc. but the store-owners know the value of these swords and honestly, they're right up there in price with what you'll find in the West - infact in some cases, it may be more expensive to purchase an older sword in such stores in Bhutan than through a reputable seller in the West!!! Sorry for the rambling, disjointed post - I'm just putting down stuff I picked up on while in Bhutan, as well as what I've read in books & online, particularly Phuntsho Rapten's article, "Patag the symbol of heroes" (which I'm sure most of you have read as well) - incidentally I've been meaning to pin down this individual and talk to him in detail, maybe someday in the future ...