Sword of the Prophet Mohammed

rasdan · 2nd May 2011, 11:08 AM

The second website contains slanders and mockery of Islam. I hope moderators will delete the link. Thanks.

rasdan · 2nd May 2011, 11:43 AM

About the link: Thank you Lew.

How can we be sure that these are indeed the Prophet's sword?

Nathaniel · 2nd May 2011, 01:49 PM

I appologize as I did not read closely enough that partucular link, but quick scanned it and saw that it listed the nine swords and description of each. The link was wiki Islam so I thought it was legit...as always it is a challenge with source reliability on the internet and I should have read though more carefully. Lesson learned.

Nathaniel · 2nd May 2011, 02:46 PM

Here is a proper site that shows picture, name and description

http://ibnulazim.wordpress.com/2008/...-muhammad-saw/

Nathaniel · 2nd May 2011, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

About the link: Thank you Lew.

How can we be sure that these are indeed the Prophet's sword?

Rasdan,

I do not know...this was something my Saudi Arabian friend showed me and I thought this might be of interest for those who study swords in this area. I know little about the weapons of this region.

Lew · 2nd May 2011, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

About the link: Thank you Lew.

How can we be sure that these are indeed the Prophet's sword?

Rasdan

There is no real way to verify that these swords belong to the Prophet? Some of them do look to be the proper style for that specific period others on the other hand do seem of a later period style but I am not an expert.

rasdan · 2nd May 2011, 05:14 PM

Nathaniel, Thanks for the info.

Lew, I actually have no knowledge whatsoever on the shape or anything about these swords. Maybe, I didn't look enough, but I didn't found any information on these swords as how they made it to the museum etc.

With so many funny informations and "facts" around, I don't know if these swords can be positively, undeniably verified to be the prophet's sword. But, again, I didn't take much effort researching.

ALEX · 2nd May 2011, 05:19 PM

Agree with Lew, there is no way to verify. As with any other antique attribution, the historical accounts often serve as "provenance". From "The Topkapi Palace" book: "according to historians, the Prophet had nine swords. He gave one he called Zulfikar to the Caliph Ali. Another sword was left to him by his father. Only two of his swords are in Topkapi Palace...They displayed along with the mantle in the Throne room. Another weapon belonging to the Prophet is a bow, is also on display".
The sword shown on the first top picture is the sword of the Caliph Ali, and bears "Zulfikar" inscription: "No better hero than Ali, no better sword than Zulfikar". However, this sword has one point, not split like Zulfikar, so there is no evidence it belonged to the Prophet.

Nathaniel · 2nd May 2011, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Rasdan

There is no real way to verify that these swords belong to the Prophet? Some of them do look to be the proper style for that specific period others on the other hand do seem of a later period style but I am not an expert.

Lew,

Thank you for removing the bad link. That is what I was curious to hear if the different swords where consistent with the style of the time period. Which particular swords are are consistent with the time period?

Lew · 2nd May 2011, 10:58 PM

I would say the straight wide bladed ones. The thinner curved ones are probably of a later period. The one that allegedly belonged to King David is questionable a sword of that length would have been almost impossible to forge since the battle between David and Goliath took place at the begining of the Iron age in the mid east and the smiths would not have had the technology to manufacture such a long blade. Infact the weapons were more likely made of bronze since this time period was on the cusp between the late Bronze age and early Iron age.

Dom · 3rd May 2011, 01:16 AM

at my first visit to Topkapi,
I was a little embarrassed to see artifacts with some questionable attributions for instance
- the wooden soup pot of Abraham
- the magic stick of Moses, with what he opened the Red Sea water's

from that, my doubt about all attributions in general was done,
I came to paid a look for the objects, but ignored the comments

since, at my last visit, I saw that the most critical objects have been withdraw,
but first impression still yet valid

when you want to prove too much, you do not prove anything

any way, the edged weapons exhibited at Topkapi are very attractive
their origins at my point of view are very questionable,
because based on religious faith, and not on historical analyses

à +

Dom

Nathaniel · 3rd May 2011, 01:20 AM

I thought I would post the nine swords so incase the link posted was lost (cite: http://ibnulazim.wordpress.com/2008...f-muhammad-saw/ )

al-Ma’thur

al-Ma’thur, also known as “Ma’thur al-Fijar” is the sword which was owned by the prophet Muhammad before he received his first revelations in Mecca. It was willed to him by his father. The prophet Muhammad migrated with the sword from Mecca to Medina, and the sword remained with him until it was transferred, along with other war equipment, to Ali b. Abi Talib.

The blade is 99 cm in length. The handle is of gold in the shape of two serpents, and is encrusted with emeralds and turquoise. Near the handle is a Kufic inscription saying: ‘Abdallah b. ‘Abd al-Muttalib. Today the sword is housed in the Topkapi Museum, Istanbul. Photograph taken from Muhammad Hasan Muhammad al-Tihami, Suyuf al-Rasul wa ‘uddah harbi-hi (Cairo: Hijr, 1312/1992).

Nathaniel · 3rd May 2011, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

at my first visit to Topkapi,
I was a little embarrassed to see artifacts with some questionable attributions for instance
- the wooden soup pot of Abraham
- the magic stick of Moses, with what he opened the Red Sea water's

from that, my doubt about all attributions in general was done,
I came to paid a look for the objects, but ignored the comments

since, at my last visit, I saw that the most critical objects have been withdraw,
but first impression still yet valid

when you want to prove too much, you do not prove anything

any way, the edged weapons exhibited at Topkapi are very attractive
their origins at my point of view are very questionable,
because based on religious faith, and not on historical analyses

à +

Dom

Dom,

Thank you for sharing your person experience. It is fantastic to hear from someone who has actually viewed these items.

Irregardless whether fact or fabrication this is not something uncommon to many religions, institutions, regimes, etc.

Nathaniel · 3rd May 2011, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

I would say the straight wide bladed ones. The thinner curved ones are probably of a later period. The one that allegedly belonged to King David is questionable a sword of that length would have been almost impossible to forge since the battle between David and Goliath took place at the begining of the Iron age in the mid east and the smiths would not have had the technology to manufacture such a long blade. Infact the weapons were more likely made of bronze since this time period was on the cusp between the late Bronze age and early Iron age.

Lew,

Thanks for the information. Logical as most societies started with straight wider blades and as metallurgic technology evolved, increased length and curve developed.

Henk · 3rd May 2011, 08:37 AM

I have to agree with Dom.

I also visited the Topkapi palace and enjoyed the exposition and the wonderfull weapons. But those who put up the exposition had a great imagination in my opinion.

2nd May 2011, 11:08 AM	#1
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	The second website contains slanders and mockery of Islam. I hope moderators will delete the link. Thanks. Last edited by rasdan; 2nd May 2011 at 11:43 AM.

2nd May 2011, 01:49 PM	#3
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	I appologize as I did not read closely enough that partucular link, but quick scanned it and saw that it listed the nine swords and description of each. The link was wiki Islam so I thought it was legit...as always it is a challenge with source reliability on the internet and I should have read though more carefully. Lesson learned. Last edited by Nathaniel; 2nd May 2011 at 08:39 PM.

2nd May 2011, 10:58 PM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I would say the straight wide bladed ones. The thinner curved ones are probably of a later period. The one that allegedly belonged to King David is questionable a sword of that length would have been almost impossible to forge since the battle between David and Goliath took place at the begining of the Iron age in the mid east and the smiths would not have had the technology to manufacture such a long blade. Infact the weapons were more likely made of bronze since this time period was on the cusp between the late Bronze age and early Iron age. Last edited by Lew; 2nd May 2011 at 11:09 PM.

3rd May 2011, 01:20 AM	#12
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	I thought I would post the nine swords so incase the link posted was lost (cite: http://ibnulazim.wordpress.com/2008...f-muhammad-saw/ ) al-Ma’thur al-Ma’thur, also known as “Ma’thur al-Fijar” is the sword which was owned by the prophet Muhammad before he received his first revelations in Mecca. It was willed to him by his father. The prophet Muhammad migrated with the sword from Mecca to Medina, and the sword remained with him until it was transferred, along with other war equipment, to Ali b. Abi Talib. The blade is 99 cm in length. The handle is of gold in the shape of two serpents, and is encrusted with emeralds and turquoise. Near the handle is a Kufic inscription saying: ‘Abdallah b. ‘Abd al-Muttalib. Today the sword is housed in the Topkapi Museum, Istanbul. Photograph taken from Muhammad Hasan Muhammad al-Tihami, Suyuf al-Rasul wa ‘uddah harbi-hi (Cairo: Hijr, 1312/1992). Attached Images

2nd May 2011, 11:43 AM	#2
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	About the link: Thank you Lew. How can we be sure that these are indeed the Prophet's sword?

2nd May 2011, 02:46 PM	#4
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Here is a proper site that shows picture, name and description http://ibnulazim.wordpress.com/2008/...-muhammad-saw/

2nd May 2011, 05:14 PM	#7
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Nathaniel, Thanks for the info. Lew, I actually have no knowledge whatsoever on the shape or anything about these swords. Maybe, I didn't look enough, but I didn't found any information on these swords as how they made it to the museum etc. With so many funny informations and "facts" around, I don't know if these swords can be positively, undeniably verified to be the prophet's sword. But, again, I didn't take much effort researching.

2nd May 2011, 05:19 PM	#8
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Agree with Lew, there is no way to verify. As with any other antique attribution, the historical accounts often serve as "provenance". From "The Topkapi Palace" book: "according to historians, the Prophet had nine swords. He gave one he called Zulfikar to the Caliph Ali. Another sword was left to him by his father. Only two of his swords are in Topkapi Palace...They displayed along with the mantle in the Throne room. Another weapon belonging to the Prophet is a bow, is also on display". The sword shown on the first top picture is the sword of the Caliph Ali, and bears "Zulfikar" inscription: "No better hero than Ali, no better sword than Zulfikar". However, this sword has one point, not split like Zulfikar, so there is no evidence it belonged to the Prophet.

3rd May 2011, 01:16 AM	#11
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	at my first visit to Topkapi, I was a little embarrassed to see artifacts with some questionable attributions for instance - the wooden soup pot of Abraham - the magic stick of Moses, with what he opened the Red Sea water's from that, my doubt about all attributions in general was done, I came to paid a look for the objects, but ignored the comments since, at my last visit, I saw that the most critical objects have been withdraw, but first impression still yet valid when you want to prove too much, you do not prove anything any way, the edged weapons exhibited at Topkapi are very attractive their origins at my point of view are very questionable, because based on religious faith, and not on historical analyses à + Dom

3rd May 2011, 08:37 AM	#15
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I have to agree with Dom. I also visited the Topkapi palace and enjoyed the exposition and the wonderfull weapons. But those who put up the exposition had a great imagination in my opinion.