STRANGE MOUKALA RIFLE

[mjamerks]

Would like to hear some thoughts about this rifle.
It looks like a moukhala but has a miquelet lock.
Also the woodcarving and decorations look european.
Can this be a hunting rifle made in Nort africa,in a european style??
I have never seen one before.
Also the barrel is signed,translation would be welcome.

Let me know your thoughts!!

[Dom]

Originally Posted by mjamerks

Would like to hear some thoughts about this rifle.
It looks like a moukhala but has a miquelet lock.
Also the woodcarving and decorations look european.
Can this be a hunting rifle made in Nort africa,in a european style??
I have never seen one before.
Also the barrel is signed,translation would be welcome.

Let me know your thoughts!!

"moukhala" and not "mokhala" the last one is, a pot containing the "khol"

the "moukhala" it's not really an hunting gun
more used for festivities; fantasia is rooted in Moroccan tradition,
the fantasia is a combination of charging on horseback and "moukhala" shooting,
though it is highly spectacular, it's typically Moroccan war game

The MOKHALA (or KAHALE) is a bottle (chased silver) used to contain the KHOL
(KHOL black powder prepared from lead sulphide) which is the powder to blacken the eyes of women in Oriental countries.

your rifle has a beautiful miquelet lock, and got a strong Europeen, or even French influence for the wood carving decoration
I noticed also the very nice ramrod, in suit with the canon decor
this rifle should be from begining of 19th century

congratulations

à +

Dom

[Dom]

translation ... but ...
just for the sound, not for meaning ...
we dunno what that mean

à +

Dom

[mjamerks]

Originally Posted by Dom

translation ... but ...
just for the sound, not for meaning ...
we dunno what that mean

à +

Dom

Thanks Dom

At first I thought it was a composite piece,adjusted by a a handy european.
But the more I look at the details makes it a very nice complete rifle.
A bit ruff in quality,but very attractive.

The word SINEER or sound is strange,why would someone engrave this
on a barrel???

Martin

[Dom]

Originally Posted by mjamerks

Thanks Dom

At first I thought it was a composite piece,adjusted by a a handy european.
But the more I look at the details makes it a very nice complete rifle.
A bit ruff in quality,but very attractive.

The word SINEER or sound is strange,why would someone engrave this
on a barrel???

Martin

Hi Martin
- rough quality ?? again, have a look on ramrod, to care to have the same design than the barrel, I don't call that "standard"
- nothing strange to have an European influence, Frenchmen are on spot over there since beginning of 20th century
- "sineer" may be also, a transfer from Berber language, few people in Morocco are Arabic speakers

à +

Dom

[mjamerks]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Martin
- rough quality ?? again, have a look on ramrod, to care to have the same design than the barrel, I don't call that "standard"
- nothing strange to have an European influence, Frenchmen are on spot over there since beginning of 20th century
- "sineer" may be also, a transfer from Berber language, few people in Morocco are Arabic speakers

à +

Dom

Hi Dom

yes its not standard to have the same design on the ramrod.
But I have better quality examples from these kind of rifles.
In all a nice adittion to the collection.

Thanks

Martin

[ward]

Respectfully morrocanns are not arabic speakers is a pretty questionable statement. Do they mix arabic with french,various berber dialects and some german and english mix yes. they tend to use a more simplified version of all of these languages. It is like saying egyptians do not speak arabic because they do not use kaa corectly. coffee = kawa = egyptian arabic awa.
Reginal differences abound with all languages

[ward]

No inletting of the lock is very odd. Also is the scroll work on the stock is it carved or is it a jesso application. mix of styles I would look more toward tunisa. I think date is later 1920-1930s espessially if it is jesso

[mjamerks]

Originally Posted by ward

No inletting of the lock is very odd. Also is the scroll work on the stock is it carved or is it a jesso application. mix of styles I would look more toward tunisa. I think date is later 1920-1930s espessially if it is jesso

Hi Ward

The scroll work is carved.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by ward

Respectfully morrocanns are not arabic speakers is a pretty questionable statement. Do they mix arabic with french,various berber dialects and some german and english mix yes. they tend to use a more simplified version of all of these languages. It is like saying egyptians do not speak arabic because they do not use kaa corectly. coffee = kawa = egyptian arabic awa.
Reginal differences abound with all languages

ward ... does you try to trap me
I have some background about who is speaking more or less Arabic, just because I was residing several years in those country
yourself ward you have a clear idea about that matter, isn't
for the new-by ...
- classic Arabic, is the pure Arab language, used for religion (Quran wrote in this language), but also, all newspapers, courses in University, news in TV, in ALL Arabic Islamic country

- KSA is the country where the colloquial language is the nearest from classic form

- Egypt, has some few difference, with typical idioms, but yet near to classic

- Libya, it's in between of KSA and Egypt

- Algeria, ... the mess ... 3 words in French with "at" at end, then 2 words in Arabic, 1 word in Berber
all Berbers (5 ethnics) are not speaking Arabic AT ALL, and they refuse to learn it ...
black population from Adrar (Timimoun) are speaking a very good and clear Arabic

- Morocco, they speaks Berber for a large majority, few are using Arabic language, otherwise, they use mainly French language

all that is a bit schematic, not easy to summarize, but I must be, more or less, not too far from ... my truth

I'm "respectfully for Moroccans",
my own grand-daughter has 1/4 blood from them
but facts are there ...

best Regards ward

à +

Dom

[ward]

Dom I just did not like the statement and I know you know better. It was more fun to yank your chain. I speak excellent timonium maryland arabic. Ok it is a mixture of mainly modern arabic mixed with various north african dialects and some berber mixed in better in the souq than any where else. I took 3 years of modern arabic at night school college when I was in my early 40's and picked up some in various north african countries. People from the Saudi pennisuala cringe when they hear me. My spoken french is so bad that most moroccans beg me to speak arabic so I do not assault their ears. If it spoken french I must have my wife speak for me, but I translate what they say so my wife can respond. In all seriousness it depends on the city and social strata what language the local population are most comfortable with. I had a long email conversation with a gentlman in tiznet in his horrible french for months untill he finally told me his written german was much better. I was ready to kill him sitting for a 1/2 hr or more trying to puzzle out his poorly written french with my poor understanding of the language. I understand a lot more than I can speak of most languages. I am much better with male voices then female differnt inflections to me. The moroccans get picked on a lot like the american hillbillys alot so I tend to defend them the local berbers have shown me more courtesy than any other people I have met. That is a general statement maybe I have just meet good people in this particular country.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by ward

Dom I just did not like the statement and I know you know better. It was more fun to yank your chain. I speak excellent timonium maryland arabic. Ok it is a mixture of mainly modern arabic mixed with various north african dialects and some berber mixed in better in the souq than any where else. I took 3 years of modern arabic at night school college when I was in my early 40's and picked up some in various north african countries. People from the Saudi pennisuala cringe when they hear me. My spoken french is so bad that most moroccans beg me to speak arabic so I do not assault their ears. If it spoken french I must have my wife speak for me, but I translate what they say so my wife can respond. In all seriousness it depends on the city and social strata what language the local population are most comfortable with. I had a long email conversation with a gentlman in tiznet in his horrible french for months untill he finally told me his written german was much better. I was ready to kill him sitting for a 1/2 hr or more trying to puzzle out his poorly written french with my poor understanding of the language. I understand a lot more than I can speak of most languages. I am much better with male voices then female differnt inflections to me. The moroccans get picked on a lot like the american hillbillys alot so I tend to defend them the local berbers have shown me more courtesy than any other people I have met. That is a general statement maybe I have just meet good people in this particular country.

ward, everything you wrote is very true, I am convinced
in my words, there was nothing that could offend the susceptibility of someone,
I never would put any personal feelings in my comments,
it was a statement of facts collected over many years in these countries
if I gave that impression, it's due to my very average English expression
I apologize to have created an misunderstanding

here it is not me who says
extracted from "wikipedia"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccan_Arabic

Relationship with other languages

Moroccan Arabic has a distinct pronunciation and is nearly unintelligible to other Arabic speakers, but is generally mutually intelligible with other Maghrebi Arabic dialects with which it forms a dialect continuum.
It is grammatically simpler, and has a less voluminous vocabulary than Classical Arabic. It has also integrated many Berber, French and Spanish words.

There is a relatively clear-cut division between Moroccan Arabic and Standard Arabic, and most uneducated Moroccans do not understand Modern Standard Arabic.
Depending on cultural background and degree of literacy, those who do speak Modern Standard Arabic may prefer to use Arabic words instead of their French or Spanish borrowed counterparts, while others often adopt code-switching between French and Moroccan Arabic.
As elsewhere in the world, how someone speaks and what words or language they use is often an indicator of their social class.

with my best regards

à +

Dom

[rickystl]

Hello. Very unusual piece. The lock is Algerian, sometimes refered to as a toe-lock miquelet. But the butt stock is shaped more Moroccan? Really unusual. Some of the metal engraving looks like it may have been done at a later date? Never seen anything like it. Rick.