Old Bali keris

Sajen · 16th April 2011, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I feel that the burl atasan that is currently a part of the wrongko may not be the original mate to the gandar, but a replacement of the original.

As Hartadi has commented, this burl atasan does strike a discordant note. I have had a great many Balinese keris pass through my hands, and I have seen many more, but I have not ever seen a combination of woods that fight against each other, as these two do. To my mind this combination of materials is out of character with Balinese aesthetics. The atasan would work well with a pendok, but not with the current bare gandar. My feeling is that the original atasan had been damaged and a person with little understanding of Balinese aesthetics used the best piece of wood he could obtain to replace it --- make no mistake:- the burl atasan is a fine piece of wood, its just that it is out of place.

Add in the pelet handle and I cannot visualise this keris as an item of dress, its appearance is too unsettling.

Hello Alan,

exactly this have been the reason why I asked in my first post if I shall replace the handle. The disharmonism between atasan and gandar strikes me as well. But like you write in #14 the atasan is very well worked and without doubt made for this blade. Isn't it possible that the gandar is a later replacement? I think that this is very more likely the case, what do you think?

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 16th April 2011, 11:25 PM

Detlef, working from a photo it is almost impossible for me to determine with any degree of accuracy the age or originality of something. Sometimes I can make an educated guess, that is most often based upon what I have seen in the past, that is, experience, but I cannot carry out the detailed, objective examination necessary to support an opinion that I am prepared to back.

This wrongko has a very well carved atasan with crisp lines, no chips in a material that is quite given to chipping, and is in a wood that that I have not ever seen in a Balinese wrongko, let alone an old Balinese wrongko.

The gandar is a very common style in old Balinese keris dress, and appears to display lesser craftsmanship, or perhaps greater wear, than the atasan.

The blade is a very fine one, but I am uncertain as to its age.

It would not surprise me if this keris was put together in Bali in the not so far distant past --- say within the last 50 years --- specifically to sell into the souvenir market, rather than as an item of dress for a local.

I apologise if this opinion is not quite as you might like it to be, I daresay it will be at odds with the opinions of most others who have posted here, and as always it comes with the qualification that it could change if I held the item in my hand.

Sajen · 17th April 2011, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Detlef, working from a photo it is almost impossible for me to determine with any degree of accuracy the age or originality of something. Sometimes I can make an educated guess, that is most often based upon what I have seen in the past, that is, experience, but I cannot carry out the detailed, objective examination necessary to support an opinion that I am prepared to back.

This wrongko has a very well carved atasan with crisp lines, no chips in a material that is quite given to chipping, and is in a wood that that I have not ever seen in a Balinese wrongko, let alone an old Balinese wrongko.

The gandar is a very common style in old Balinese keris dress, and appears to display lesser craftsmanship, or perhaps greater wear, than the atasan.

The blade is a very fine one, but I am uncertain as to its age.

It would not surprise me if this keris was put together in Bali in the not so far distant past --- say within the last 50 years --- specifically to sell into the souvenir market, rather than as an item of dress for a local.

I apologise if this opinion is not quite as you might like it to be, I daresay it will be at odds with the opinions of most others who have posted here, and as always it comes with the qualification that it could change if I held the item in my hand.

Alan,

nothing to apologise. I have asked for your opinion so I have to take it. I just asked the seller if he have any informations about the history of this keris. When I have received it I will take some pictures more, maybe this will be helpful.

Best regards,

Detlef

David · 17th April 2011, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

...exactly this have been the reason why I asked in my first post if I shall replace the handle. The disharmonism between atasan and gandar strikes me as well.

It seems to me that changing the hilt will do absolutely nothing to change the disharmony between the atasan and the gandar, so i hold by my original advice to keep the hilt as is, unless you find this disharmony so unsettling that you choose to have entirely new dress made for this keris.

Sajen · 17th April 2011, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

It seems to me that changing the hilt will do absolutely nothing to change the disharmony between the atasan and the gandar, so i hold by my original advice to keep the hilt as is, unless you find this disharmony so unsettling that you choose to have entirely new dress made for this keris.

Hi David,

you are absolute right. What I want to say was only that I have had a feeling that something by this keris is in disharmony but don't know by this time what exactly. So coming up my question about the hilt.
I don't think that I will let work a new dress for this keris. Like we all have agreed is the atasan a very well worked piece from a good wood and I see no reason to replace it. Maybe by my visit to Bali this summer I will take with pictures from this keris and will show them in Neka Art Museum to get a opinion over there.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 18th April 2011, 12:15 PM

Here a other Bali keris from my collection also with a ganja wilut where the atasan and gandar worked from different wood.

Sajen · 30th April 2011, 01:54 PM

Yesterday I received the keris and I think that I have to agree with Alan that the complete keris isn't a very old one but in all parts very good worked.
i have asked the seller about the history of this keris and he told me that he get this keris with some other items from a man who has been a surveyor in Indonesia and the Philippines before the second world war.

I have taken some close ups from the atasan as well from the blade. Someone has a hunch which wood is used for the atasan?

Sajen · 30th April 2011, 02:12 PM

I found this picture by internet search so I think that I have been correct which my first guess that the used wood is gembal jati (teak burl). What do you think?

A. G. Maisey · 30th April 2011, 11:23 PM

Detlef, as I wrote in my earlier post, I cannot be certain from a photo as to whether this wood is burl teak or not.

It is a burl, but I know of a number of burls that have very similar appearance.

It looks like burl teak (jati gembol) but close physical examination would be necessary to be sure, a picture is just not good enough for certainty.

18th April 2011, 12:15 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,307	Here a other Bali keris from my collection also with a ganja wilut where the atasan and gandar worked from different wood. Attached Images

30th April 2011, 01:54 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,307	Yesterday I received the keris and I think that I have to agree with Alan that the complete keris isn't a very old one but in all parts very good worked. i have asked the seller about the history of this keris and he told me that he get this keris with some other items from a man who has been a surveyor in Indonesia and the Philippines before the second world war. I have taken some close ups from the atasan as well from the blade. Someone has a hunch which wood is used for the atasan? Attached Images

30th April 2011, 02:12 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,307	I found this picture by internet search so I think that I have been correct which my first guess that the used wood is gembal jati (teak burl). What do you think? Attached Images

16th April 2011, 11:25 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Detlef, working from a photo it is almost impossible for me to determine with any degree of accuracy the age or originality of something. Sometimes I can make an educated guess, that is most often based upon what I have seen in the past, that is, experience, but I cannot carry out the detailed, objective examination necessary to support an opinion that I am prepared to back. This wrongko has a very well carved atasan with crisp lines, no chips in a material that is quite given to chipping, and is in a wood that that I have not ever seen in a Balinese wrongko, let alone an old Balinese wrongko. The gandar is a very common style in old Balinese keris dress, and appears to display lesser craftsmanship, or perhaps greater wear, than the atasan. The blade is a very fine one, but I am uncertain as to its age. It would not surprise me if this keris was put together in Bali in the not so far distant past --- say within the last 50 years --- specifically to sell into the souvenir market, rather than as an item of dress for a local. I apologise if this opinion is not quite as you might like it to be, I daresay it will be at odds with the opinions of most others who have posted here, and as always it comes with the qualification that it could change if I held the item in my hand.

30th April 2011, 11:23 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Detlef, as I wrote in my earlier post, I cannot be certain from a photo as to whether this wood is burl teak or not. It is a burl, but I know of a number of burls that have very similar appearance. It looks like burl teak (jati gembol) but close physical examination would be necessary to be sure, a picture is just not good enough for certainty.