Old Bali keris

Marcokeris · 13th April 2011, 10:02 PM

IMO the hilt is OK

Nice keris

asomotif · 13th April 2011, 10:07 PM

Hi Detlef,

Nice keris.
I would keep the hilt. Looks like a good original combi to me.
Check the peksi , maybe the hilt should fit even lower and a uwer is not missing at all.
A lot of old Bali Keris are without uwer.

Other option is to sent it to the Netherlands

Best regards,
Willem

Hartadi · 14th April 2011, 12:26 PM

Hello Detlef, it's nice keris !
The Pelet of hilt isn't match with the warangka, you probably need other hilt to this

David · 14th April 2011, 01:56 PM

hmmm....if this hilt isn't a "match" for this sarong i don't know how you would go about finding one that matched better... I think this hilt looks fine. Have you removed it yet. It is possible that there might just be something up top of the hole that prevents the hilt from coming down more. If not it's easy enough to bore the hole a little deeper for a better fit. As for a uwer, a nice one is easily obtainable. Some very ornate hilts sometimes do not seem to need them. IMO this ensemble would look better with one. I am not convinced that all the Bali keris that we find without uwers were always that way. I think sometimes they may have been sold off along the way (if precious metals and jeweled) or damaged and not replaced. Certainly we see more elaborate hilts where a uwer would just be too much, but with a standard everyday dress like this it seems more appropriate.
Also IMO, the practice of collectors to so freely trade up for need hilts and other parts is a strange one to me. Unless something is damaged or out of place it is my general tendency to preserve the ensembles as they are. After all the keris comes to us with a certain amount of history and this hilt is part of that history.

Sajen · 14th April 2011, 05:37 PM

Thank you all for comment! Like I write before I am incline to keep the hilt. A nice uwer I still have, this don't will be a problem. I don't have the keris in my hands until now, I will post some pictures when I have received it. David, I am also not a friend to change a hilt when I see that this one was long together with a keris but many times you can't be sure about this. BTW I think that it was and still is a well-established practice to change hilts by a keris.
Willem, when I am bored with this keris I will send it to you!

Regards,

Detlef

David · 14th April 2011, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Willem, when I am bored with this keris I will send it to you!

Oh Detelf, i doubt Willem wants this old thing. Send it to me, i can find some place for it....

asomotif · 14th April 2011, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Oh Detelf, i doubt Willem wants this old thing. Send it to me, i can find some place for it....

Hmmm. Considering David's avatar, it looks like he has a nice hilt to complete your keris. Can't beat that.

asomotif · 14th April 2011, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am not convinced that all the Bali keris that we find without uwers were always that way. I think sometimes they may have been sold off along the way (if precious metals and jeweled) or damaged and not replaced.

I recall a thread where I cheked the RMV and KIT files for old Bali keris.
And a lot of them where without uwer. But then again. This does not proof much. Considering that those keris are all pre WW2, one can imagine that for instance during WW2 museum personel would trade off the metal and gems for food / cigarettes and other daily needs.

Anyway, lets see what Detlef can say once he receives the keris.

Best regrards,
Willem

A. G. Maisey · 14th April 2011, 10:50 PM

As has already been agreed, this is a good keris.

I feel that the burl atasan that is currently a part of the wrongko may not be the original mate to the gandar, but a replacement of the original. From the photo I am not able to say if this is a recent replacement or not, nor can I say whether or not it is teak burl ( jati gembol). It is burl,certainly, but jati gembol? I don't know.

As Hartadi has commented, this burl atasan does strike a discordant note. I have had a great many Balinese keris pass through my hands, and I have seen many more, but I have not ever seen a combination of woods that fight against each other, as these two do. To my mind this combination of materials is out of character with Balinese aesthetics. The atasan would work well with a pendok, but not with the current bare gandar. My feeling is that the original atasan had been damaged and a person with little understanding of Balinese aesthetics used the best piece of wood he could obtain to replace it --- make no mistake:- the burl atasan is a fine piece of wood, its just that it is out of place.

Add in the pelet handle and I cannot visualise this keris as an item of dress, its appearance is too unsettling.

Comments have been made regarding the gems and gold that could be found in Balinese uwer.

When a Balinese decorates anything at all, including keris, the dominant principle is to obtain a stunning final appearance. To obtain this appearance they used ( and use) any materials at all, with very little regard for the value of the materials. Where gems were included in keris dress, they were included for reasons other than their appearance, for instance, diamonds were a protective device against poison.

I have seen and handled royal keris handles that combined diamonds, good quality rubies, and glass. Mostly the gems found in Balinese keris dress are not worth much.

The only Balinese keris I have seen and handled that have gold incorporated into their dress are two royal keris that were at one time in the possession of the Raja of Badung.

Of the hundreds of Balinese uwer that I have seen, the only two gold uwer were on these keris. I have a bottle full of old Balinese uwer, and not one of these is gold, or silver, and most are set with pastes rather than natural stones. Because of this, I doubt that the keris which were in European public collections during WWII were stripped of anything. I would be inclined to accept that a Balinese keris that came into a European collection pre-WWII and that is now without a uwer, was very probably without that uwer at the time it was collected.

David · 15th April 2011, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Comments have been made regarding the gems and gold that could be found in Balinese uwer.

I'm sorry Alan, but i don't see a single mention of gold uwers until you brought it up yourself in this post. When i mentioned "precious metals and jewels" i was really thinking more of silver, a precious metal i have seen much more often on Balinese uwers. I think most of us are aware that pastes, glass and non-precious metals are also commonly used even on high end keris in Bali. My thought was just a passing one that selling it off for a more physical need might be one reason a uwer might go missing as well as simply being worn out and not being replaced.
I still think that these bebondalan hilts call for a uwer to visually complete the ensemble, but i am sure i am placing a great deal of my own personal preference on that.
Frankly i completely missed the fact that the atasan is from burled wood and can see the conflict to a certain extent. Since this seems so out of place to you Alan are you suggesting that it was replaced by a non-Balinese person?

"BTW I think that it was and still is a well-established practice to change hilts by a keris."

Absolutely Detlef, no doubt about that. My take on that though is that this practice is well established within the Balinese culture. As an outside Western collector i am less inclined to make such changes. I will admit that i did change a hilt on one piece in my collection, a decent old Bali blade that came in what i have come to refer to as "dance dress". The hilt was of very poorly carved figurative one of the type we most often see on "tourist" keris and i thought the keris deserved better.

David · 15th April 2011, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Because of this, I doubt that the keris which were in European public collections during WWII were stripped of anything.

One might also ask why a fair amount of old Bali sheaths seem to have been stripped of their pendoks....

Sajen · 16th April 2011, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I feel that the burl atasan that is currently a part of the wrongko may not be the original mate to the gandar, but a replacement of the original.

As Hartadi has commented, this burl atasan does strike a discordant note. I have had a great many Balinese keris pass through my hands, and I have seen many more, but I have not ever seen a combination of woods that fight against each other, as these two do. To my mind this combination of materials is out of character with Balinese aesthetics. The atasan would work well with a pendok, but not with the current bare gandar. My feeling is that the original atasan had been damaged and a person with little understanding of Balinese aesthetics used the best piece of wood he could obtain to replace it --- make no mistake:- the burl atasan is a fine piece of wood, its just that it is out of place.

Add in the pelet handle and I cannot visualise this keris as an item of dress, its appearance is too unsettling.

Hello Alan,

exactly this have been the reason why I asked in my first post if I shall replace the handle. The disharmonism between atasan and gandar strikes me as well. But like you write in #14 the atasan is very well worked and without doubt made for this blade. Isn't it possible that the gandar is a later replacement? I think that this is very more likely the case, what do you think?

Regards,

Detlef

13th April 2011, 10:02 PM	#1
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	IMO the hilt is OK Nice keris

13th April 2011, 10:07 PM	#2
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Hi Detlef, Nice keris. I would keep the hilt. Looks like a good original combi to me. Check the peksi , maybe the hilt should fit even lower and a uwer is not missing at all. A lot of old Bali Keris are without uwer. Other option is to sent it to the Netherlands Best regards, Willem

14th April 2011, 12:26 PM	#3
Hartadi Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 56	Hello Detlef, it's nice keris ! The Pelet of hilt isn't match with the warangka, you probably need other hilt to this

14th April 2011, 01:56 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,220	hmmm....if this hilt isn't a "match" for this sarong i don't know how you would go about finding one that matched better... I think this hilt looks fine. Have you removed it yet. It is possible that there might just be something up top of the hole that prevents the hilt from coming down more. If not it's easy enough to bore the hole a little deeper for a better fit. As for a uwer, a nice one is easily obtainable. Some very ornate hilts sometimes do not seem to need them. IMO this ensemble would look better with one. I am not convinced that all the Bali keris that we find without uwers were always that way. I think sometimes they may have been sold off along the way (if precious metals and jeweled) or damaged and not replaced. Certainly we see more elaborate hilts where a uwer would just be too much, but with a standard everyday dress like this it seems more appropriate. Also IMO, the practice of collectors to so freely trade up for need hilts and other parts is a strange one to me. Unless something is damaged or out of place it is my general tendency to preserve the ensembles as they are. After all the keris comes to us with a certain amount of history and this hilt is part of that history.

14th April 2011, 05:37 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,238	Thank you all for comment! Like I write before I am incline to keep the hilt. A nice uwer I still have, this don't will be a problem. I don't have the keris in my hands until now, I will post some pictures when I have received it. David, I am also not a friend to change a hilt when I see that this one was long together with a keris but many times you can't be sure about this. BTW I think that it was and still is a well-established practice to change hilts by a keris. Willem, when I am bored with this keris I will send it to you! Regards, Detlef

14th April 2011, 10:50 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,025	As has already been agreed, this is a good keris. I feel that the burl atasan that is currently a part of the wrongko may not be the original mate to the gandar, but a replacement of the original. From the photo I am not able to say if this is a recent replacement or not, nor can I say whether or not it is teak burl ( jati gembol). It is burl,certainly, but jati gembol? I don't know. As Hartadi has commented, this burl atasan does strike a discordant note. I have had a great many Balinese keris pass through my hands, and I have seen many more, but I have not ever seen a combination of woods that fight against each other, as these two do. To my mind this combination of materials is out of character with Balinese aesthetics. The atasan would work well with a pendok, but not with the current bare gandar. My feeling is that the original atasan had been damaged and a person with little understanding of Balinese aesthetics used the best piece of wood he could obtain to replace it --- make no mistake:- the burl atasan is a fine piece of wood, its just that it is out of place. Add in the pelet handle and I cannot visualise this keris as an item of dress, its appearance is too unsettling. Comments have been made regarding the gems and gold that could be found in Balinese uwer. When a Balinese decorates anything at all, including keris, the dominant principle is to obtain a stunning final appearance. To obtain this appearance they used ( and use) any materials at all, with very little regard for the value of the materials. Where gems were included in keris dress, they were included for reasons other than their appearance, for instance, diamonds were a protective device against poison. I have seen and handled royal keris handles that combined diamonds, good quality rubies, and glass. Mostly the gems found in Balinese keris dress are not worth much. The only Balinese keris I have seen and handled that have gold incorporated into their dress are two royal keris that were at one time in the possession of the Raja of Badung. Of the hundreds of Balinese uwer that I have seen, the only two gold uwer were on these keris. I have a bottle full of old Balinese uwer, and not one of these is gold, or silver, and most are set with pastes rather than natural stones. Because of this, I doubt that the keris which were in European public collections during WWII were stripped of anything. I would be inclined to accept that a Balinese keris that came into a European collection pre-WWII and that is now without a uwer, was very probably without that uwer at the time it was collected.