Thai Kastane

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Aceh.html

A well written and honest approach with references well noted that he has drawn from. I know and respect Dominique's on going work too. Well noted in the opening passage is that these weapons and the Chinese reference opens plausability to the hilt in the image Ariel posted could be from Vietnam as it was country under Chinese influence and rule.

Since this study was made available on the net quite some time back, I have not seen it ammended in any way as was expressed.
Is Mr Crosby available to delve further? I know I have some further questions since obtaining and dispersing the Kelling Hall collection, one unfortunately Mr Zonneveld was unable to help with further direction thanks to communications via Mr Rogers.

As Mr Crosby notes in many places within the text, 'Peudeueng' is the term for all swords from the region curved or straight. Further reference with regards to hilt type along with curved or straight blade and the many regional locations is noted and to complete is a monumnental work.
Within the text provided in the link and without further clear definition the Pasangan or other names is only noted as I quote 'A review of the literature seems to divide', obviously at the time of writing, not definative.

Of interest to me is the blade profile of these weapons, in particular the tips and fuller construction and where the basket hilt varients so far to my eyes have a sabre type hatchet tip. It was nice to see it touched on in these work too.

[David]

I know that Mr. Crosby used to post regularly on SFI, but i haven't noticed any posts by him recently over there.

[kai]

Well, John is a forum member here as well. Hope he'll chime in when online again.

However, I don't see any hint which would help to place this sword anywhere throughout the SEA archipelago: IMHO the workmanship doesn't look like Aceh/Sumatra nor Negara at all; also the blade would need to be an imported example (so no help in placing it).

I'm not positive but I also don't see a good match with Viet fittings. Any pics, Gav? The Thai crowd seems also confident that this is not from their area. Not any votes for Khmer/Lao/Burmese, too?

At the moment, I'm with Rick that S India warrants some more research. Any input from those well-versed in that area?

Regards,
Kai

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by kai

Well, John is a forum member here as well. Hope he'll chime in when online again.

However, I don't see any hint which would help to place this sword anywhere throughout the SEA archipelago: IMHO the workmanship doesn't look like Aceh/Sumatra nor Negara at all; also the blade would need to be an imported example (so no help in placing it).

I'm not positive but I also don't see a good match with Viet fittings. Any pics, Gav? The Thai crowd seems also confident that this is not from their area. Not any votes for Khmer/Lao/Burmese, too?

At the moment, I'm with Rick that S India warrants some more research. Any input from those well-versed in that area?

Regards,
Kai

Kai,

I am glad you came by.

As you are well aware, Islamic blades are found throughout Sumatra and many other SEA countries, the blade appears to be of Islamic form/style.

The hilt appears to me to be a blend of Vietnamese grip and pommel and the guard design of the Hulu meu apet. Attached is a hilt image of my Guom, note the similarities in styles. Add a Hulu meu apet guard to this grip, consider different materials used, add some stones to the mane and flowing mane along the spine of the grip and there are many more similarities than any other regional influences to my eye. Don't stop searching the southern Indian regions though ;-)

[kai]

As you are well aware, Islamic blades are found throughout Sumatra and many other SEA countries, the blade appears to be of Islamic form/style.

Yes, but we can't use the likely Ottoman/Arab/Persian/Afghan/Mughal origin of this blade to argue it's origin from SEA, can we? Moreover, imported blades in Viet dressing seem to be Chinese or Thai/Lao/Khmer while blades imported from the western Islamic sphere seem to be rare as hen's teeth. (I can't recall any...)

The hilt appears to me to be a blend of Vietnamese grip and pommel and the guard design of the Hulu meu apet. Attached is a hilt image of my Guom, note the similarities in styles.

I see your point; however, IMHO the similarities are not close enough to support the notion of Viet craftmanship/style: the construction is very different as are the details of decoration. (Guards on Viet swords seem to be either of European or Japanese influence.)

I'd also stipulate that there is not enough similarity to link this guard construction with the very conservative Aceh style. I guess that this hilt variant is more likely a direct descendant of Indian/Afghan/Persian/Arab/Ottoman hilts.

Regards,
Kai

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by kai

Yes, but we can't use the likely Ottoman/Arab/Persian/Afghan/Mughal origin of this blade to argue it's origin from SEA, can we? Moreover, imported blades in Viet dressing seem to be Chinese or Thai/Lao/Khmer while blades imported from the western Islamic sphere seem to be rare as hen's teeth. (I can't recall any...)


I see your point; however, IMHO the similarities are not close enough to support the notion of Viet craftmanship/style: the construction is very different as are the details of decoration. (Guards on Viet swords seem to be either of European or Japanese influence.)

I'd also stipulate that there is not enough similarity to link this guard construction with the very conservative Aceh style. I guess that this hilt variant is more likely a direct descendant of Indian/Afghan/Persian/Arab/Ottoman hilts.

Regards,
Kai

I see it more wholely Kastane in essence than a fanciful hybrid...although..part of me still considers the above offerings as feasible under the facts known about SEA swords types, trading and cultural interfacing.
The mask, mane and size of the hilt do say Sri Lanka, the blade, well there aren't many places Islamic type blades aren't seen...

[kai]

Hello Gav,

I see it more wholely Kastane in essence than a fanciful hybrid...

The mask, mane and size of the hilt do say Sri Lanka

Yes, I'd also love to get more input why the people at Leeds believe the hilt to not originate from SL. It's certainly not a typical kastane hilt but the long Singhalese-European interaction may account for some local variety...

Regards,
Kai