European (Italian?) Dagger

A Senefelder · 26th March 2011, 02:07 PM

I don't know if this is a starting point or not but i've found several references in auctions to a Mediteranian musket stamped by an M. Franzini http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/50/lid/68 . The overall appearence of the dagger is 18th century to my eyes. Fernando, I was wondering if the blade may have been cut down as well.

fernando · 26th March 2011, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Senefelder

I don't know if this is a starting point or not but i've found several references in auctions to a Mediteranian musket stamped by an M. Franzini http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/50/lid/68 . .

I saw that as well, but hardly firearm makers are also sword makers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Senefelder

The overall appearence of the dagger is 18th century to my eyes..

Yes, or even earlier ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Senefelder

Fernando, I was wondering if the blade may have
been cut down as well.

That's what i have tried to say, but didn't put it the right way

.

A Senefelder · 26th March 2011, 02:54 PM

Quote:

I saw that as well, but hardly firearm makers are also sword makers.

Is it possible that M.Franzini referes to a firm? Several craftsman of different types working for a mastercraftsman? Of course given the popularity of plagerizing the names of renown makers like Ferrara its quite possible that the Franzini name has been used by another maker on this example to appear to be some one elses work.

Spunjer · 26th March 2011, 05:30 PM

thank you, gentlemen! when the picture was taken, the lighting was bad. i inform the gentleman to bring it over tomorrow so i can take better pictures. too bad he did a major no-no: he polished the brass on the pommel and handguard. i'll post some better close-ups tomorrow. now, does the hilt and handguard signifies anything?

fernando · 26th March 2011, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

... now, does the hilt and handguard signifies anything?

Wait till the cavalry comes around

... Are you there Jim?

Jim McDougall · 26th March 2011, 08:59 PM

Hi Nando,,
I agree with you and Alan, this does look like a cut down rapier blade, and of the section often seen on both Spanish and Italian rapiers c. 1680s. I have always been under the impression these were being produced in Solingen for Spanish market and often used spurious names and phrases, such as 'JESUS' MARIA' I have seen on some. These same type blades are found on Italian rapiers (as noted c.1680s) and are seen in Boccia& Coelho.

I believe this dagger is probably 19th century in mounts, and reflects neoclassic styling and symbolism with the acanthus leaves, trefoil (clover) and the cross pattee. It is of Italian style recalling mid 17th form (Boccia & Coelho #617-620).

These central fuller blades from rapiers seem to have been widely distributed and in trade late into the 18th century. I believe the reason for this is that highly tradition gentry, especially the Spanish, remounted these blades not only in smallswords but in the long use of the earlier rapiers.

I searched as well for 'FRANZINI" but really found nothing either, though the name Franchini does come up c.1490 in a maker of Italian polearm heads.
Many of these names and words both Italian and Spanish were used spuriously by German makers. What Alan notes on names that occurred over long periods of time is right, often these were families which became firms and many individual workers were involved. This is the reason that accounts for such wide variation in makers marks and guild marks.

Regarding Ferrara, this is very much the case, in fact it is widely doubted that Ferrara actually even refers to a single maker and is more likely a term which is applied as a 'brand' or style for a blade destined to particular market. For example, on Scottish broadswords the 'ANDREA FERRARA' was very much favored by the Scots, and the word Andrew (It. Andrea) meant loosely 'true' or 'reliable' while Ferrara obviously Lat. for iron (steel). In Solingen these markings were placed on the blades accordingly, while other terms/names were used as well, i.e. Sahagum. I am wondering if perhaps 'Franzini' may have been applied in the channel of this rapier blade which is of the trade type and perhaps in this sense, for Italian market. It is known there was an interchange between Germany/Italy and Spain in this commerce.

Could we see close ups of the other markings for more clues? In the meantime I would say this is a 19th century dagger using a probably early 18th century blade in neoclassic mounts with blade cut down accordingly.My only other note would be that the blade seems to almost widen slightly reflecting an almost spatulate look, or maybe its just the perspective.

Ok OK another treatise I know!!!!

All the best,
JIm

A Senefelder · 26th March 2011, 09:50 PM

I believe, from my short time around this forum that this is why Jim is " the man " so much of the time.

Jim McDougall · 26th March 2011, 09:55 PM

Just found a reference (T. Del Mar sale, 332, 2007, #216) a boys swept hilt rapier, early 17th century signed Claudio Franzini. The blade was around 36" and the central fuller terminates similar to this, however the forte block is different and is not intersected by the fuller as seen on this blade of our example.

I think more support that the Franzini name was probably known and perhaps used in the Solingen blades. On the blade sold in the auction it states the name appears between decorative marks but could not see them in the photo

In the fuller on the dagger posted here it seems like I see an O in the inscription. Also toward the end of the fuller what looks like a cursive M, can we find more on the full markings and names ?.

26th March 2011, 02:07 PM	#1
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	I don't know if this is a starting point or not but i've found several references in auctions to a Mediteranian musket stamped by an M. Franzini http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/50/lid/68 . The overall appearence of the dagger is 18th century to my eyes. Fernando, I was wondering if the blade may have been cut down as well.

26th March 2011, 05:30 PM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thank you, gentlemen! when the picture was taken, the lighting was bad. i inform the gentleman to bring it over tomorrow so i can take better pictures. too bad he did a major no-no: he polished the brass on the pommel and handguard. i'll post some better close-ups tomorrow. now, does the hilt and handguard signifies anything?

26th March 2011, 08:59 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Hi Nando,, I agree with you and Alan, this does look like a cut down rapier blade, and of the section often seen on both Spanish and Italian rapiers c. 1680s. I have always been under the impression these were being produced in Solingen for Spanish market and often used spurious names and phrases, such as 'JESUS' MARIA' I have seen on some. These same type blades are found on Italian rapiers (as noted c.1680s) and are seen in Boccia& Coelho. I believe this dagger is probably 19th century in mounts, and reflects neoclassic styling and symbolism with the acanthus leaves, trefoil (clover) and the cross pattee. It is of Italian style recalling mid 17th form (Boccia & Coelho #617-620). These central fuller blades from rapiers seem to have been widely distributed and in trade late into the 18th century. I believe the reason for this is that highly tradition gentry, especially the Spanish, remounted these blades not only in smallswords but in the long use of the earlier rapiers. I searched as well for 'FRANZINI" but really found nothing either, though the name Franchini does come up c.1490 in a maker of Italian polearm heads. Many of these names and words both Italian and Spanish were used spuriously by German makers. What Alan notes on names that occurred over long periods of time is right, often these were families which became firms and many individual workers were involved. This is the reason that accounts for such wide variation in makers marks and guild marks. Regarding Ferrara, this is very much the case, in fact it is widely doubted that Ferrara actually even refers to a single maker and is more likely a term which is applied as a 'brand' or style for a blade destined to particular market. For example, on Scottish broadswords the 'ANDREA FERRARA' was very much favored by the Scots, and the word Andrew (It. Andrea) meant loosely 'true' or 'reliable' while Ferrara obviously Lat. for iron (steel). In Solingen these markings were placed on the blades accordingly, while other terms/names were used as well, i.e. Sahagum. I am wondering if perhaps 'Franzini' may have been applied in the channel of this rapier blade which is of the trade type and perhaps in this sense, for Italian market. It is known there was an interchange between Germany/Italy and Spain in this commerce. Could we see close ups of the other markings for more clues? In the meantime I would say this is a 19th century dagger using a probably early 18th century blade in neoclassic mounts with blade cut down accordingly.My only other note would be that the blade seems to almost widen slightly reflecting an almost spatulate look, or maybe its just the perspective. Ok OK another treatise I know!!!! All the best, JIm

26th March 2011, 09:50 PM	#7
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	I believe, from my short time around this forum that this is why Jim is " the man " so much of the time.

26th March 2011, 09:55 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Just found a reference (T. Del Mar sale, 332, 2007, #216) a boys swept hilt rapier, early 17th century signed Claudio Franzini. The blade was around 36" and the central fuller terminates similar to this, however the forte block is different and is not intersected by the fuller as seen on this blade of our example. I think more support that the Franzini name was probably known and perhaps used in the Solingen blades. On the blade sold in the auction it states the name appears between decorative marks but could not see them in the photo In the fuller on the dagger posted here it seems like I see an O in the inscription. Also toward the end of the fuller what looks like a cursive M, can we find more on the full markings and names ?.