Composite Sword

A Senefelder · 25th March 2011, 03:01 PM

I'm posting this piece for a friend who brought it to me to have a look at. He got it at I believe Bonhams where it had been listed simply as " composite rapire ". It is a bit of a curiousity.

The blade which appears to be original to the later 17th or earlier 18th century is 31 and 3/4 inches long. It has what i've always know as a " military sharpen " that is to say that on the front half of both edges of the blade are shaprened. There is a short fuller at the base of the blade with the name xx FREDREICO xxx PICHINIO xx in it on both sides. There are engraved on the blade on both side along the length of the fuller and for several inches passed it floral spryas, trophied arms and a little man running with a sword. The engraving is the same on both sides.

The pommel and grip seem to possibly be original material although whether they and the blade are associated I can't tell.

The piece that forms the pas d'ane is much cruder than the rest of the steel parts and i'm unsure if this is original. The quillions may be original ( the finiel has come off one end ) but the brass knuckle bow I do not believe is ( it and the basket are the only non - steel components and are of lower quality than most of the steel parts ) and both are set in the rough pas d'ane block in slots and held in place by a rivet than passes through all three.

The basket is the most curious thing about the sword. It is big, bulky and very loose ( I do not believe it was ever tight ). It is far to narrow to allow a hand in comfortably in it and if you can get a hand in it is impossible to hold the sword in any proper period stances. It is brass and both sides have the same four emblems on them. One is Christ on the cross, next to that in the middle is two cherubic figures holding what appears to be a portrait of Ceasar surrounded by the motto PRODEO ET PATRIA FREDREICO III AVSTRIA 1471 ( I do not believe 1471 to be a date but one of the numerolgically important numbers that appeared on blades in the 16th and 17th centuries like 1414 ). Above that is a five pointed star with a sword through its middle with a crown with corss atop it on the swords point. On the other side of the motto is skull and crossed bones wearing a crown with a cross atop it. The baskets decorative motif seems almost fraternal, perhaps Freemasonic. The original basket ( I suspect it was perhaps a cup hilt ) sat lower on the blade than the current one as evidenced by the notches on either side of the blade just below it.

The blade, rough pas d'ane block, grip and pommel are tight together, the quillions are loose from the basket knocking around. My best guess is some sort of fraternal European assembly from the 18th or 19th century using mostly later 17th century parts that may or may not be associated.

Any thoughts or ideas on this piece are most appreciated on this odd item.

fernando · 25th March 2011, 04:25 PM

Apparently the Pichinio mark was widely copied by other smiths, like those of other famous names. Still this blade looks fine ... at least looking from this far. It must have been originally mounted in a swept hilt rapier, judging by the narrow section in the 'forte', which must have been the sword 'ricasso' instead.
I would not trust the hilt. Not because of the '1471', which is coherent with the date Frederico III existed. But the whole composition doesn't look much plausible to me.
Mind you, this is an ignorant's perspective. Other will come in with more qualified opinions.

A Senefelder · 25th March 2011, 04:46 PM

Fernando, the blade is very nice and seems of good quality and I am fairly certain that it is original myself. The guard is a massive heavy affair, bulky and weighting as much as the rest of the components combined I think. It throws the weight of the sword off in the hand it is so heavy.

fernando · 25th March 2011, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Senefelder

... The guard is a massive heavy affair ...

Not like a fraternity item but more loke wall hanging replica ?

A Senefelder · 25th March 2011, 05:18 PM

The guard is 1/8 of an inch or nearly 3mm. thick all over and at a guess weights at least a pound if not a bit more.

Jim McDougall · 25th March 2011, 06:41 PM

This is a really fascinating item, as these kinds of pieces so full of arcane symbolism and elaborately crafted are so mysterious. There is of course no easy reference to consult, save perhaps the catalogs of Horstmann & Bros. of Philadelphia who furnished varying society, fraternal and theatrical regalia. This one seems to be 'one off' much as other items I have seen from latter 19th century. They are indeed curiosities, and another bizarre sword I once saw had an old broadsword blade but the hilt was a huge skull and crossbones, made of formed brass and much in mind of the Indian pata, or gauntlet sword.

As Fernando has as always, astutely noted the blade is indeed earlier and with the much imitated name of Pichinio, in the usual variant spellings. I am inclined by the notched places at the top to agree that it was probably originally on a cuphilt.

It would seem as agreed, that this hilt is well made, but clearly decorative rather than functional, and would seem to have been fabricated to carry symbolic themes associated with the ceremony, ritual and tradition of the many fraternal and 'secret' societies formed after the Civil War. The five point star and the neoclassic sword resembling early Roman types; the skull and crossbones; the image of Caesar are all fraternally significant symbols often seen on the regalia weapons.

The medallion alluding to Frederick III of Austria (1415-1493) is with reference to this key figure of the Habsburg dynasty who was also the Holy Roman Emperor of the time and the father of Maximilan I. He was of course extremely important historically, but seems to have likely had possible connections noteworthy to later secret societies and groups, which is only suggested by his cryptic use of acronyms and symbolism. He used the letters A.E.I.O.U. on his personal things and many other instances.

The overall appearance of the hilt reflects the joined circles of some early Spanish rapiers, the wide quillons of cuphilts, the pommel similar to cuphilts, the basketguard is crafted in the manner of Scottish hilts, but in the encompassing style of the German 'schlager' fencing sword. The symbolism is largely fraternal or secret society oriented, however the use of reference to this Holy Roman Emperor remains unclear. The date, as well noted, does not seem to apply to any particular date key to Frederick, though it was indeed during his reign. Regarding the 1471, such numbers in a gemetric sense seem however to have been applied mostly with names and phrases on blades, using combined numbers and thier occult values talismanically.

The skull and bones were apparantly significant in Masonic ritual in Germany, which of course came to the US, though it is unclear whether the symbol was particularly prevalent in these lodges in certain countries one more than another. Freemasonry is of course well known in Scotland, which might account for the baskethilt style here, or Germany, with the schlager style hilt, these observations are obvious. In Freemasonry one of the key figures ceremonially as I understand, is the Tyler. The sword used by the Tyler is significant in meeting at the lodge and distinctly symbolic. I have always considered that many of these often highly crafted swords which are often carrying deep symbolism may well have been Tyler's swords. In many cases these swords are refurbished weapons that belonged to esteemed members, and were significant as having been in combat, captured weapons, or these kinds of associations.

Attachment is Fredericks monogram reflecting profuse symbolism

Well, I know......another treatise.....sorry

but its an interesting sword!!! It gives a guy stuck in the middle of Texas in a Winnebago somethin' to do!!!!

All the best,
Jim

A Senefelder · 25th March 2011, 07:07 PM

Jim, thanks so much for the input. I will pass this on to my friend. He's had this one for a while and really was at a loss about it. My ideas regarding its possible fraternal connection were guesswork at best as it is an area i'm weak in. With its original guard in place I imagine this sword would have been very quick in the hand. Your idea of a Tyler sword would potetially be a good road of investigation regarding this piece.

Jim McDougall · 25th March 2011, 07:53 PM

You're welcome Alan, and your observations and thoughts were well placed and I wouldnt consider them guesswork. Most of what we can do with these kinds of anomalies is try to place as sound ideas as possible with information known.
In looking at the wrapped grip and quillons, another possible association for hilt components would be the cottage industry in the Victorian period for reproduced examples of arms and armour. One of the leading producers was the atelier of Ernst Schmitt in Munich ("Arms and Armour from the Atelier of Ernst Schmitt" , Mowbray, 1967) and this is noted on the MyArmoury forum.
He produced from 1870s-1930s and numbers of his items are found at the Higgins Armoury in Worcester, Mass.

Authentic rapier and broadsword blades often entered the U.S. via Mexico and the Spanish Colonies, for example numbers of the swords with blades carrying the 'Spanish motto' , i.e. Draw Me Not Without Reason' etc. were captured during the Mexican-American War and sometimes found use on American officers swords. In the same manner, I have discovered a number of instances where these type blades have been found in Tyler swords in various Masonic lodges in research over the years.

All the best,
Jim

A Senefelder · 25th March 2011, 08:12 PM

Jim, very familiar with Mr. Schmitt ( his ID'ed work often trades at the same value as low to mid level Renaissance originals ). I don't know if you'd seen this before http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_schmidt.html but the interactive feature of the article allowing you to compare Schmitts work with the originals he was copying is neat http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_schmidt_comp.html. Having seen and owned a few very nice Victorian reproductions built using some original components ( something I understand Mr.Schmitt did on occasion, using an original armour component and constructing a harness around it to match ) my first thought when my friend showed it to me was that it was Victorian. As the evening went on and I contiued to handle the piece I had a harder and harder time ignoring the symbols in the guard and the possible fraternal/Freemasonic character they may have.

Jim McDougall · 25th March 2011, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Senefelder

Jim, very familiar with Mr. Schmitt ( his ID'ed work often trades at the same value as low to mid level Renaissance originals ). I don't know if you'd seen this before http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_schmidt.html but the interactive feature of the article allowing you to compare Schmitts work with the originals he was copying is neat http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_schmidt_comp.html. Having seen and owned a few very nice Victorian reproductions built using some original components ( something I understand Mr.Schmitt did on occasion, using an original armour component and constructing a harness around it to match ) my first thought when my friend showed it to me was that it was Victorian. As the evening went on and I contiued to handle the piece I had a harder and harder time ignoring the symbols in the guard and the possible fraternal/Freemasonic character they may have.

I was pretty sure you were well aware of Schmitt as you've well established your expertise on arms and armour, especially armour. Thank you for the heads up on the feature on MyArmoury. I first learned of Schmitt many years ago in a "Man at Arms" article, and was amazed at how authentic his work was. Still, his integrity as far as I understand, was impeccable, and he never created his work to deceive. It was unscrupulous dealers who took advantage when they later passed off his products as originals. This is something that has happened with a craftsman that is a longtime friend and always stamped his work to avoid that, but the industrious dealers filed the mark away and off they went.

It is amazing how these items, even though not original weapons, have established themselves as fascinating antiques in thier own right, and have thier own deeply imbued history.

All the best,
Jim

A Senefelder · 25th March 2011, 09:03 PM

Quote:

This is something that has happened with a craftsman that is a longtime friend and always stamped his work to avoid that, but the industrious dealers filed the mark away and off they went.

At one time I owned a sword made by Luther Sowers ( commisioned by St. Marys college from him back in the late 70's. Its a reproduction of a German basket hilt show in Arms and Armor in Colonial America 1513-1783 ) that I picked up at a flea market. Curious as to how a sword by a maker like Luther could end up so far from home I eventually tracked him down via phone. In a thoroughly enjoyable 3 hour phone marathon we strayed into exactly this topic. Luther pointed out to me an additional two " hidden " makers stamps of his besides the obvious ones on the blade which he had to do for exactly the reason you mention. Luther became aware that some of the people that were commisioning him for work were turning around and antiquing his pieces and selling them as originals.

25th March 2011, 03:01 PM	#1
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Composite Sword I'm posting this piece for a friend who brought it to me to have a look at. He got it at I believe Bonhams where it had been listed simply as " composite rapire ". It is a bit of a curiousity. The blade which appears to be original to the later 17th or earlier 18th century is 31 and 3/4 inches long. It has what i've always know as a " military sharpen " that is to say that on the front half of both edges of the blade are shaprened. There is a short fuller at the base of the blade with the name xx FREDREICO xxx PICHINIO xx in it on both sides. There are engraved on the blade on both side along the length of the fuller and for several inches passed it floral spryas, trophied arms and a little man running with a sword. The engraving is the same on both sides. The pommel and grip seem to possibly be original material although whether they and the blade are associated I can't tell. The piece that forms the pas d'ane is much cruder than the rest of the steel parts and i'm unsure if this is original. The quillions may be original ( the finiel has come off one end ) but the brass knuckle bow I do not believe is ( it and the basket are the only non - steel components and are of lower quality than most of the steel parts ) and both are set in the rough pas d'ane block in slots and held in place by a rivet than passes through all three. The basket is the most curious thing about the sword. It is big, bulky and very loose ( I do not believe it was ever tight ). It is far to narrow to allow a hand in comfortably in it and if you can get a hand in it is impossible to hold the sword in any proper period stances. It is brass and both sides have the same four emblems on them. One is Christ on the cross, next to that in the middle is two cherubic figures holding what appears to be a portrait of Ceasar surrounded by the motto PRODEO ET PATRIA FREDREICO III AVSTRIA 1471 ( I do not believe 1471 to be a date but one of the numerolgically important numbers that appeared on blades in the 16th and 17th centuries like 1414 ). Above that is a five pointed star with a sword through its middle with a crown with corss atop it on the swords point. On the other side of the motto is skull and crossed bones wearing a crown with a cross atop it. The baskets decorative motif seems almost fraternal, perhaps Freemasonic. The original basket ( I suspect it was perhaps a cup hilt ) sat lower on the blade than the current one as evidenced by the notches on either side of the blade just below it. The blade, rough pas d'ane block, grip and pommel are tight together, the quillions are loose from the basket knocking around. My best guess is some sort of fraternal European assembly from the 18th or 19th century using mostly later 17th century parts that may or may not be associated. Any thoughts or ideas on this piece are most appreciated on this odd item. Attached Images

25th March 2011, 06:41 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	This is a really fascinating item, as these kinds of pieces so full of arcane symbolism and elaborately crafted are so mysterious. There is of course no easy reference to consult, save perhaps the catalogs of Horstmann & Bros. of Philadelphia who furnished varying society, fraternal and theatrical regalia. This one seems to be 'one off' much as other items I have seen from latter 19th century. They are indeed curiosities, and another bizarre sword I once saw had an old broadsword blade but the hilt was a huge skull and crossbones, made of formed brass and much in mind of the Indian pata, or gauntlet sword. As Fernando has as always, astutely noted the blade is indeed earlier and with the much imitated name of Pichinio, in the usual variant spellings. I am inclined by the notched places at the top to agree that it was probably originally on a cuphilt. It would seem as agreed, that this hilt is well made, but clearly decorative rather than functional, and would seem to have been fabricated to carry symbolic themes associated with the ceremony, ritual and tradition of the many fraternal and 'secret' societies formed after the Civil War. The five point star and the neoclassic sword resembling early Roman types; the skull and crossbones; the image of Caesar are all fraternally significant symbols often seen on the regalia weapons. The medallion alluding to Frederick III of Austria (1415-1493) is with reference to this key figure of the Habsburg dynasty who was also the Holy Roman Emperor of the time and the father of Maximilan I. He was of course extremely important historically, but seems to have likely had possible connections noteworthy to later secret societies and groups, which is only suggested by his cryptic use of acronyms and symbolism. He used the letters A.E.I.O.U. on his personal things and many other instances. The overall appearance of the hilt reflects the joined circles of some early Spanish rapiers, the wide quillons of cuphilts, the pommel similar to cuphilts, the basketguard is crafted in the manner of Scottish hilts, but in the encompassing style of the German 'schlager' fencing sword. The symbolism is largely fraternal or secret society oriented, however the use of reference to this Holy Roman Emperor remains unclear. The date, as well noted, does not seem to apply to any particular date key to Frederick, though it was indeed during his reign. Regarding the 1471, such numbers in a gemetric sense seem however to have been applied mostly with names and phrases on blades, using combined numbers and thier occult values talismanically. The skull and bones were apparantly significant in Masonic ritual in Germany, which of course came to the US, though it is unclear whether the symbol was particularly prevalent in these lodges in certain countries one more than another. Freemasonry is of course well known in Scotland, which might account for the baskethilt style here, or Germany, with the schlager style hilt, these observations are obvious. In Freemasonry one of the key figures ceremonially as I understand, is the Tyler. The sword used by the Tyler is significant in meeting at the lodge and distinctly symbolic. I have always considered that many of these often highly crafted swords which are often carrying deep symbolism may well have been Tyler's swords. In many cases these swords are refurbished weapons that belonged to esteemed members, and were significant as having been in combat, captured weapons, or these kinds of associations. Attachment is Fredericks monogram reflecting profuse symbolism Well, I know......another treatise.....sorry but its an interesting sword!!! It gives a guy stuck in the middle of Texas in a Winnebago somethin' to do!!!! All the best, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 25th March 2011 at 08:01 PM.

25th March 2011, 04:25 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Apparently the Pichinio mark was widely copied by other smiths, like those of other famous names. Still this blade looks fine ... at least looking from this far. It must have been originally mounted in a swept hilt rapier, judging by the narrow section in the 'forte', which must have been the sword 'ricasso' instead. I would not trust the hilt. Not because of the '1471', which is coherent with the date Frederico III existed. But the whole composition doesn't look much plausible to me. Mind you, this is an ignorant's perspective. Other will come in with more qualified opinions.

25th March 2011, 04:46 PM	#3
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Fernando, the blade is very nice and seems of good quality and I am fairly certain that it is original myself. The guard is a massive heavy affair, bulky and weighting as much as the rest of the components combined I think. It throws the weight of the sword off in the hand it is so heavy.

25th March 2011, 05:18 PM	#5
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	The guard is 1/8 of an inch or nearly 3mm. thick all over and at a guess weights at least a pound if not a bit more.

25th March 2011, 07:07 PM	#7
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Jim, thanks so much for the input. I will pass this on to my friend. He's had this one for a while and really was at a loss about it. My ideas regarding its possible fraternal connection were guesswork at best as it is an area i'm weak in. With its original guard in place I imagine this sword would have been very quick in the hand. Your idea of a Tyler sword would potetially be a good road of investigation regarding this piece.

25th March 2011, 07:53 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	You're welcome Alan, and your observations and thoughts were well placed and I wouldnt consider them guesswork. Most of what we can do with these kinds of anomalies is try to place as sound ideas as possible with information known. In looking at the wrapped grip and quillons, another possible association for hilt components would be the cottage industry in the Victorian period for reproduced examples of arms and armour. One of the leading producers was the atelier of Ernst Schmitt in Munich ("Arms and Armour from the Atelier of Ernst Schmitt" , Mowbray, 1967) and this is noted on the MyArmoury forum. He produced from 1870s-1930s and numbers of his items are found at the Higgins Armoury in Worcester, Mass. Authentic rapier and broadsword blades often entered the U.S. via Mexico and the Spanish Colonies, for example numbers of the swords with blades carrying the 'Spanish motto' , i.e. Draw Me Not Without Reason' etc. were captured during the Mexican-American War and sometimes found use on American officers swords. In the same manner, I have discovered a number of instances where these type blades have been found in Tyler swords in various Masonic lodges in research over the years. All the best, Jim

25th March 2011, 08:12 PM	#9
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Jim, very familiar with Mr. Schmitt ( his ID'ed work often trades at the same value as low to mid level Renaissance originals ). I don't know if you'd seen this before http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_schmidt.html but the interactive feature of the article allowing you to compare Schmitts work with the originals he was copying is neat http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_schmidt_comp.html. Having seen and owned a few very nice Victorian reproductions built using some original components ( something I understand Mr.Schmitt did on occasion, using an original armour component and constructing a harness around it to match ) my first thought when my friend showed it to me was that it was Victorian. As the evening went on and I contiued to handle the piece I had a harder and harder time ignoring the symbols in the guard and the possible fraternal/Freemasonic character they may have.