For discusion

tunggulametung · 24th March 2011, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danny1976

Ofcourse after this discusion i.m less happy with the blade

Why? I hope it is not because of my comment.

David · 24th March 2011, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Why? I hope it is not because of my comment.

Actually i would venture to say that it is more probably everyone else's comments. I don't think it is the age of this piece that is disappointing, but rather that it is a reworked keris and the putut is not original.
Frankly, counter to your assertion, i have very rarely seen a keris putut that was not in fact a reworked blade or a contemporary artificially aged piece.

danny1976 · 24th March 2011, 10:59 PM

@ tunggulametung.

No..No not because of youre comment

Indeed as david says , because it is not a original petut blade , that was my hope

tunggulametung · 25th March 2011, 05:49 PM

In regard with rework matter, I limit my novice understanding as per below (unless anyone else suggest otherwise):
Original putut: intended and made from scratch up to finish as dapur putut
Not original: Has been spent sometime or even very long time as other dapur, then from that point reworked as putut.

+ If reworked for non economic purpose, i.e. esoteric purpose/initiated by the owner that may qualify original in some degree, but generally I don't think people went this far, I mean if someone want putut blade they can buy one, as simple as that
+ does not count how rough/refined the finish/details

Me too, most putut that I've seen so far are in my opinion recent made or those made to looks older then it was, but not reworked pieces as I can tell.

In short someone need a good reason to rework a blade where ready to purchase original putut blade as per above is abundance. For dealer/keris maker, the expected selling price is just the same I guess. Rework piece cost somewhat double because you need to invest time, effort and money on the blade itself, rewelding it, recarving it and finally perhaps new dress.

@ danny1967: the blade may not refined alright (sorry

) but you have the blade with you so you can make more appropriate observation. I cannot see the additional welding as Alan and drdavid suggest from the photos (to me it looks like the normal or regular welding pattern) but maybe it is just me. Unperfect fit on gonjo line may come from previously removed rust as a factor, or worsened by that factor.

By the way I'm curious what forum member think about what makes a good putut and what not.

My two cents opinion

danny1976 · 25th March 2011, 07:12 PM

To set something right ...

I.m happy with al the coments because it is a good learning proces for
collecting and sometimes it wil mean to get negative critic , so be it

@tunggulametung.
Yes i did observe the blade and the ''welded piece'' is only vissible
on one side of the blade . I did take a risk by purchasing this keris
and that is why i wrote ..i,m less happy with the blade , not because of the critic but because me buying it

regards,

A. G. Maisey · 26th March 2011, 12:34 AM

When we consider the reworking of blades for economic reasons we need to realise that the keris market in Indonesia, especially in Jawa has not always been as it is now.

In today's economic environment I believe that it is absolutely certain that nobody would spend the time, effort and money to take an old blade and totally rework it to produce a crude attempt at falsification.

However, things have not always been as they are now.

During the 1960's and 1970's the economic situation for ordinary people living in Indonesia was dire.

Going back before the 1950's we had a period of turmoil, and before that we had the colonial period.

During the colonial period a European demand for the unusual in keris arose, and at the same time, colonial policies ensured a depressed standard of living for native Javanese. We may look back upon this time as a golden period. Maybe it was for Europeans, but I can still recall the photos I have seen of the entrance to a public garden in the hills behind Malang in East Jawa. A sign at the entrance read (translated) " DOGS AND JAVANESE ARE FORBIDDEN ENTRY". Those photos were taken in the 1930's.

The point I am trying to make is that prior to the revival of keris culture that occurred in the late 1970's and early 1980's, it was well worth the effort for people in Jawa to alter an old , ordinary keris to make it more valuable.

Prior to the revival of keris culture in Jawa, keris prices outside Indonesia were relatively high and keris outside Indonesia were relatively rare.

When I began collecting in the 1950's , a respectable keris, a respectable Indo-Persian piece, and a respectable Japanese sword all sold for around the same price.

Prior to 1967 the highest price ever paid at auction in the UK for an Oriental Dagger was achieved at Christies for a Balinese keris. This price was equivalent to $US2940 at that time.

This high level of comparative value for keris was the primary driver in the production of deliberate forgeries.

Quite frankly, I get sick and tired of the continually recurring comments of many collectors about fakes and forgeries and reproductions and tourist keris in today's market.

Mostly these collectors confuse current era keris production with that which is not genuine. Certainly there are keris which are not genuine, but the current era out and out forgeries are seldom seen by collectors in the western world for the simple reason that western collectors do not buy in the very high market level that good present day forgeries occupy.

Present day production of keris is 99% directed at the local market in Indonesia, not at the very few people who have an interest in keris in the world outside Indonesia.

And the same applies to present day forgeries. A good forger no longer wants a few dollars for his work. He wants what the genuine article will sell for, and that means tens of thousands of dollars. Today's forgers do not waste time by producing keris that western collectors will buy, they shoot for the top of the market, and that is in Indonesia.

To see the genuine forgeries in keris we need to look at an earlier era.

We need to look at a time when the artisans of Jawa still possessed the skills which permitted the extremely delicate fire welding that a good blade alteration demands. I doubt that it would be possible today to find a smith in Jawa today who could fire weld with the delicacy needed to take the very thin piece of metal taken from the tip of a big , old, Tuban blade and attach it to the sorsoran to permit a singo barong, or a puthut to be carved. Nor could we find people today who have the necessary skills and necessary need, to put the time into altering an old blade to make it an even halfway convincing forgery. The last man whom I knew who was capable of this died about ten years ago, and he was well into his eighties when he went.

In my core collection I have keris which are definite alterations. In my opinion these are very, very collectible pieces, as when they are old, well done alterations they represent a level of skill that no longer exists.

This keris of Danny's is in my opinion most definitely an altered keris. It is not the best altered keris I have ever seen, but it is certainly not bad, and in my opinion is well worth keeping as a part of any truly representative collection.

BluErf · 26th March 2011, 03:50 AM

Thanks Alan for sharing a good perspective into the reason why such reworked kerises were made and their relevance in today's market condition. Adds a valuable dimension to the overly simplistic "genuine-forgery" view towards collecting kerises.

25th March 2011, 05:49 PM	#4
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	In regard with rework matter, I limit my novice understanding as per below (unless anyone else suggest otherwise): Original putut: intended and made from scratch up to finish as dapur putut Not original: Has been spent sometime or even very long time as other dapur, then from that point reworked as putut. + If reworked for non economic purpose, i.e. esoteric purpose/initiated by the owner that may qualify original in some degree, but generally I don't think people went this far, I mean if someone want putut blade they can buy one, as simple as that + does not count how rough/refined the finish/details Me too, most putut that I've seen so far are in my opinion recent made or those made to looks older then it was, but not reworked pieces as I can tell. In short someone need a good reason to rework a blade where ready to purchase original putut blade as per above is abundance. For dealer/keris maker, the expected selling price is just the same I guess. Rework piece cost somewhat double because you need to invest time, effort and money on the blade itself, rewelding it, recarving it and finally perhaps new dress. @ danny1967: the blade may not refined alright (sorry) but you have the blade with you so you can make more appropriate observation. I cannot see the additional welding as Alan and drdavid suggest from the photos (to me it looks like the normal or regular welding pattern) but maybe it is just me. Unperfect fit on gonjo line may come from previously removed rust as a factor, or worsened by that factor. By the way I'm curious what forum member think about what makes a good putut and what not. My two cents opinion

24th March 2011, 10:59 PM	#3
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	@ tunggulametung. No..No not because of youre comment Indeed as david says , because it is not a original petut blade , that was my hope

25th March 2011, 07:12 PM	#5
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	To set something right ... I.m happy with al the coments because it is a good learning proces for collecting and sometimes it wil mean to get negative critic , so be it @tunggulametung. Yes i did observe the blade and the ''welded piece'' is only vissible on one side of the blade . I did take a risk by purchasing this keris and that is why i wrote ..i,m less happy with the blade , not because of the critic but because me buying it regards,

26th March 2011, 12:34 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	When we consider the reworking of blades for economic reasons we need to realise that the keris market in Indonesia, especially in Jawa has not always been as it is now. In today's economic environment I believe that it is absolutely certain that nobody would spend the time, effort and money to take an old blade and totally rework it to produce a crude attempt at falsification. However, things have not always been as they are now. During the 1960's and 1970's the economic situation for ordinary people living in Indonesia was dire. Going back before the 1950's we had a period of turmoil, and before that we had the colonial period. During the colonial period a European demand for the unusual in keris arose, and at the same time, colonial policies ensured a depressed standard of living for native Javanese. We may look back upon this time as a golden period. Maybe it was for Europeans, but I can still recall the photos I have seen of the entrance to a public garden in the hills behind Malang in East Jawa. A sign at the entrance read (translated) " DOGS AND JAVANESE ARE FORBIDDEN ENTRY". Those photos were taken in the 1930's. The point I am trying to make is that prior to the revival of keris culture that occurred in the late 1970's and early 1980's, it was well worth the effort for people in Jawa to alter an old , ordinary keris to make it more valuable. Prior to the revival of keris culture in Jawa, keris prices outside Indonesia were relatively high and keris outside Indonesia were relatively rare. When I began collecting in the 1950's , a respectable keris, a respectable Indo-Persian piece, and a respectable Japanese sword all sold for around the same price. Prior to 1967 the highest price ever paid at auction in the UK for an Oriental Dagger was achieved at Christies for a Balinese keris. This price was equivalent to $US2940 at that time. This high level of comparative value for keris was the primary driver in the production of deliberate forgeries. Quite frankly, I get sick and tired of the continually recurring comments of many collectors about fakes and forgeries and reproductions and tourist keris in today's market. Mostly these collectors confuse current era keris production with that which is not genuine. Certainly there are keris which are not genuine, but the current era out and out forgeries are seldom seen by collectors in the western world for the simple reason that western collectors do not buy in the very high market level that good present day forgeries occupy. Present day production of keris is 99% directed at the local market in Indonesia, not at the very few people who have an interest in keris in the world outside Indonesia. And the same applies to present day forgeries. A good forger no longer wants a few dollars for his work. He wants what the genuine article will sell for, and that means tens of thousands of dollars. Today's forgers do not waste time by producing keris that western collectors will buy, they shoot for the top of the market, and that is in Indonesia. To see the genuine forgeries in keris we need to look at an earlier era. We need to look at a time when the artisans of Jawa still possessed the skills which permitted the extremely delicate fire welding that a good blade alteration demands. I doubt that it would be possible today to find a smith in Jawa today who could fire weld with the delicacy needed to take the very thin piece of metal taken from the tip of a big , old, Tuban blade and attach it to the sorsoran to permit a singo barong, or a puthut to be carved. Nor could we find people today who have the necessary skills and necessary need, to put the time into altering an old blade to make it an even halfway convincing forgery. The last man whom I knew who was capable of this died about ten years ago, and he was well into his eighties when he went. In my core collection I have keris which are definite alterations. In my opinion these are very, very collectible pieces, as when they are old, well done alterations they represent a level of skill that no longer exists. This keris of Danny's is in my opinion most definitely an altered keris. It is not the best altered keris I have ever seen, but it is certainly not bad, and in my opinion is well worth keeping as a part of any truly representative collection.

26th March 2011, 03:50 AM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thanks Alan for sharing a good perspective into the reason why such reworked kerises were made and their relevance in today's market condition. Adds a valuable dimension to the overly simplistic "genuine-forgery" view towards collecting kerises.