For discusion

drdavid · 23rd March 2011, 08:58 PM

Hi Danny
looks like a large piece of metal has been welded in at some stage. I suspect by the shape that both petuts are later additions. They are not particularly elegantly done. The gonjo is not too convincing either, especially when you look at the relationship to the gandik. I also suspect that the blade profile has been 'adjusted' at some stage. Just my opinion though, i am a novice
drdavid

A. G. Maisey · 23rd March 2011, 10:07 PM

My feeling about this blade is as follows, and it has my usual qualifications that if I had the blade in my hand I could alter what I have said, but in this case, not by too much.

I believe that this keris started life as a big, old Tuban blade.

A piece was cut from the point end of the blade and fire welded across the sorsoran.The existing gandik would have been incorporated into this weld.

The two puthut figures were carved from the added material, the blade profile was reshaped, and the gonjo reduced to fit.

The alteration of ordinary old blades to turn them into something more attractive from a commercial point of view seems to have been a very long standing practice in Jawa. My guess is that it goes back to the early part of the 19th century.

David, for a novice your guess was pretty good.Possibly demonstrates that most medicos are skilled observers.

danny1976 · 24th March 2011, 05:36 PM

Everyone thank you for joining in the discusion !!
Ofcourse after this discusion i.m less happy with the blade

tunggulametung · 24th March 2011, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danny1976

Ofcourse after this discusion i.m less happy with the blade

Why? I hope it is not because of my comment.

David · 24th March 2011, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Why? I hope it is not because of my comment.

Actually i would venture to say that it is more probably everyone else's comments. I don't think it is the age of this piece that is disappointing, but rather that it is a reworked keris and the putut is not original.
Frankly, counter to your assertion, i have very rarely seen a keris putut that was not in fact a reworked blade or a contemporary artificially aged piece.

danny1976 · 24th March 2011, 10:59 PM

@ tunggulametung.

No..No not because of youre comment

Indeed as david says , because it is not a original petut blade , that was my hope

tunggulametung · 25th March 2011, 05:49 PM

In regard with rework matter, I limit my novice understanding as per below (unless anyone else suggest otherwise):
Original putut: intended and made from scratch up to finish as dapur putut
Not original: Has been spent sometime or even very long time as other dapur, then from that point reworked as putut.

+ If reworked for non economic purpose, i.e. esoteric purpose/initiated by the owner that may qualify original in some degree, but generally I don't think people went this far, I mean if someone want putut blade they can buy one, as simple as that
+ does not count how rough/refined the finish/details

Me too, most putut that I've seen so far are in my opinion recent made or those made to looks older then it was, but not reworked pieces as I can tell.

In short someone need a good reason to rework a blade where ready to purchase original putut blade as per above is abundance. For dealer/keris maker, the expected selling price is just the same I guess. Rework piece cost somewhat double because you need to invest time, effort and money on the blade itself, rewelding it, recarving it and finally perhaps new dress.

@ danny1967: the blade may not refined alright (sorry

) but you have the blade with you so you can make more appropriate observation. I cannot see the additional welding as Alan and drdavid suggest from the photos (to me it looks like the normal or regular welding pattern) but maybe it is just me. Unperfect fit on gonjo line may come from previously removed rust as a factor, or worsened by that factor.

By the way I'm curious what forum member think about what makes a good putut and what not.

My two cents opinion

25th March 2011, 05:49 PM	#7
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	In regard with rework matter, I limit my novice understanding as per below (unless anyone else suggest otherwise): Original putut: intended and made from scratch up to finish as dapur putut Not original: Has been spent sometime or even very long time as other dapur, then from that point reworked as putut. + If reworked for non economic purpose, i.e. esoteric purpose/initiated by the owner that may qualify original in some degree, but generally I don't think people went this far, I mean if someone want putut blade they can buy one, as simple as that + does not count how rough/refined the finish/details Me too, most putut that I've seen so far are in my opinion recent made or those made to looks older then it was, but not reworked pieces as I can tell. In short someone need a good reason to rework a blade where ready to purchase original putut blade as per above is abundance. For dealer/keris maker, the expected selling price is just the same I guess. Rework piece cost somewhat double because you need to invest time, effort and money on the blade itself, rewelding it, recarving it and finally perhaps new dress. @ danny1967: the blade may not refined alright (sorry) but you have the blade with you so you can make more appropriate observation. I cannot see the additional welding as Alan and drdavid suggest from the photos (to me it looks like the normal or regular welding pattern) but maybe it is just me. Unperfect fit on gonjo line may come from previously removed rust as a factor, or worsened by that factor. By the way I'm curious what forum member think about what makes a good putut and what not. My two cents opinion

23rd March 2011, 08:58 PM	#1
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Hi Danny looks like a large piece of metal has been welded in at some stage. I suspect by the shape that both petuts are later additions. They are not particularly elegantly done. The gonjo is not too convincing either, especially when you look at the relationship to the gandik. I also suspect that the blade profile has been 'adjusted' at some stage. Just my opinion though, i am a novice drdavid

23rd March 2011, 10:07 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,060	My feeling about this blade is as follows, and it has my usual qualifications that if I had the blade in my hand I could alter what I have said, but in this case, not by too much. I believe that this keris started life as a big, old Tuban blade. A piece was cut from the point end of the blade and fire welded across the sorsoran.The existing gandik would have been incorporated into this weld. The two puthut figures were carved from the added material, the blade profile was reshaped, and the gonjo reduced to fit. The alteration of ordinary old blades to turn them into something more attractive from a commercial point of view seems to have been a very long standing practice in Jawa. My guess is that it goes back to the early part of the 19th century. David, for a novice your guess was pretty good.Possibly demonstrates that most medicos are skilled observers.

24th March 2011, 05:36 PM	#3
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	Everyone thank you for joining in the discusion !! Ofcourse after this discusion i.m less happy with the blade

24th March 2011, 10:59 PM	#6
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	@ tunggulametung. No..No not because of youre comment Indeed as david says , because it is not a original petut blade , that was my hope