Resin, traditional recipies

David R · 20th March 2011, 12:12 AM

Some time back on a site dedicated to Kukri's they mentioned a mixture of resin and honey as the glue to fix tang into hilt. By the way, hooray, at last serious discussion about these fixatives. I think many of us have sadly looked at a dismounted tulwar and wondered how to get it back together.
One of the posters on sword forum international gave a rough compo he used on a kilij type sword that involved resin and brick dust along with, I think, sealing wax.

fearn · 20th March 2011, 03:54 AM

I recall that the first volume of Traditional Bowyer's Bible had some recipes for traditional glues used with bows. Considering the stresses bows undergo, they might work okay.

F

tunggulametung · 20th March 2011, 05:16 AM

I have a kalis tang that appear to be fixed with Tien Ta Yao Gin

at least the odor and color matched

. It appear to be used to lacquer the cord on the hilt as well. It is easy to find in Java but not sure about south PI. I heard gondorukem were used on keris but never find evidence, nice woody scent when heated. It is hard and bound to wooden surface alright (cord also I guess) but I would say somewhat brittle. Need to check how it bound to iron.

Gavin Nugent · 20th March 2011, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

I recall that the first volume of Traditional Bowyer's Bible had some recipes for traditional glues used with bows. Considering the stresses bows undergo, they might work okay.

F

Great thought Fearn, I don't have the volumes you speak of but I'll consult Klopsteg's Turkish Archery and see what hides within, thanks!

I must say everyone has put forth some great input in to the thread. I'd love to see it develop deeper in to manufaturing processes, even weapons specific.

Gav

Tim Simmons · 20th March 2011, 09:38 AM

Many Indian and other Asian weapons have the tang set in a grainy plaster/cement like compound. In trying to repair a choora hilt I found the tang held with this substance which hand become very crumbly.

This substance is like a fine lime mortar. Lime mortar in ancient.

t_c · 20th March 2011, 09:34 PM

Ok, So Damar is just pine pitch glue (Damar Pine) with some combination of charcoal, beeswax, and some other hardening/bonding agent (clay,fiber,etc). That's been helpful reading, thanks. So if I understand this right, Damar and the European cutler's resin were relatively the same in so far as they are all pine pitch glues?

I found the whole process to make pitch glue nicely outlined here:
http://www.survivaltopics.com/surviv...ng-pitch-glue/

spiral · 21st March 2011, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Many Indian and other Asian weapons have the tang set in a grainy plaster/cement like compound. In trying to repair a choora hilt I found the tang held with this substance which hand become very crumbly.

This substance is like a fine lime mortar. Lime mortar in ancient.

Yes Ive seen that same stuff & I remember reading in an old book years ago that in Afghanistan & NWF a mix based on Borax was often used to hold on sword hilts.

The Laha I saw used used in Dharan Nepal in 2005 was boiled tree resins,saps & tars mixed with hard powderd or ground substances like stone, bone & buffalo horn dust etc. untill it is of the right quality & consitancy.

Occasionaly its dark brown mostly its black. I expect many different handy ingriediants have been chucked into it over the years.

spiral

VANDOO · 22nd March 2011, 04:25 AM

THE SAME PITCH USED TO CAULK CRACKS, PROTECT ROPES AND GEAR FROM MOISTURE ON SAILING SHIPS IS OFTEN USED TO WATERPROOF AND SECURE BLADES AS WELL AS WOVEN CORDS ON WEAPONS. NATIVE AMERICANS USED NATURALLY OCCURRING PETROLEUM FOUND IN SEEPS ON ROCK FACES OR POOLS OR TAR BALLS FROM BEACHES. ASPHALT OCCURS NATURALLY IN QUITE A FEW PLACES AND WOULD HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE AND YIELD GOOD ADHESIVES. THE LABEREA TAR PITS IN CALIFORNIA AS WELL AS OTHER SEEPS COME TO MIND AND NO DOUBT WERE TO BE FOUND HERE AND THERE. IT WORKED WELL FOR SEALING BASKETS TO HOLD LIQUIDS AS WELL AS TO SECURE POINTS OR WATERPROOF GEAR. NO DOUBT THESE NATURALLY OCCURRING SEEPS WERE AVAILABLE IN MANY AREAS AND PROCESSED AND USED FOR MANY THINGS BY MANY SOCIETY'S.
I BELIEVE THE SAP (RAW LATEX) FROM THE RUBBER TREES WERE PROBABLY PROCESSED AND USED FOR SIMILAR PURPOSES. THERE WOULD BE MINERAL , VEGETABLE AND ANIMAL ADHESIVES AND GLUES FROM MANY SOURCES USED. PERHAPS SOMEONE FROM AUSTRALIA COULD ENLIGHTEN US ON THE PREPARATION OF SPINIFEX GRASS AND GUM TREE RESINS USED BY THE ABORIGINALS.
ADHESIVES THAT WERE WATERPROOF SEEM TO BE PREFERRED ESPECIALLY ON WEAPONS OR TOOLS THAT WOULD SEE A LOT OF USE. I HAVE DUG UP LUMPS OF BLACK ADHESIVE IN OLD INDIAN CAMPS SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARS OLD. I HAVEN'T TESTED THEM BUT SUSPECT THEY ARE NATURAL PETROLEUM/TARS WHICH ARE HIGH IN PARAFFIN AND WATERPROOF.

migueldiaz · 22nd March 2011, 05:32 AM

In western Visayas particularly in Panay, the sap from the breadfruit tree (local name is kamansi) is traditionally used as blade tang adhesive.

From a Hiligaynon-English dictionary:

kalólot, To apply any sticky, viscous material. Ginakalólot sa ápal sang binángon ang tagók sang kamánsi. The juice of the bread-fruit is used for fastening the handle of a bolo.

I think in Moroland, I think a tree sap called galgal is used. Spunjer would know this better.

20th March 2011, 12:12 AM	#1
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,120	Resins Some time back on a site dedicated to Kukri's they mentioned a mixture of resin and honey as the glue to fix tang into hilt. By the way, hooray, at last serious discussion about these fixatives. I think many of us have sadly looked at a dismounted tulwar and wondered how to get it back together. One of the posters on sword forum international gave a rough compo he used on a kilij type sword that involved resin and brick dust along with, I think, sealing wax.

20th March 2011, 09:38 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Many Indian and other Asian weapons have the tang set in a grainy plaster/cement like compound. In trying to repair a choora hilt I found the tang held with this substance which hand become very crumbly. This substance is like a fine lime mortar. Lime mortar in ancient. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 20th March 2011 at 09:59 AM.

22nd March 2011, 04:25 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE SAME PITCH USED TO CAULK CRACKS, PROTECT ROPES AND GEAR FROM MOISTURE ON SAILING SHIPS IS OFTEN USED TO WATERPROOF AND SECURE BLADES AS WELL AS WOVEN CORDS ON WEAPONS. NATIVE AMERICANS USED NATURALLY OCCURRING PETROLEUM FOUND IN SEEPS ON ROCK FACES OR POOLS OR TAR BALLS FROM BEACHES. ASPHALT OCCURS NATURALLY IN QUITE A FEW PLACES AND WOULD HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE AND YIELD GOOD ADHESIVES. THE LABEREA TAR PITS IN CALIFORNIA AS WELL AS OTHER SEEPS COME TO MIND AND NO DOUBT WERE TO BE FOUND HERE AND THERE. IT WORKED WELL FOR SEALING BASKETS TO HOLD LIQUIDS AS WELL AS TO SECURE POINTS OR WATERPROOF GEAR. NO DOUBT THESE NATURALLY OCCURRING SEEPS WERE AVAILABLE IN MANY AREAS AND PROCESSED AND USED FOR MANY THINGS BY MANY SOCIETY'S. I BELIEVE THE SAP (RAW LATEX) FROM THE RUBBER TREES WERE PROBABLY PROCESSED AND USED FOR SIMILAR PURPOSES. THERE WOULD BE MINERAL , VEGETABLE AND ANIMAL ADHESIVES AND GLUES FROM MANY SOURCES USED. PERHAPS SOMEONE FROM AUSTRALIA COULD ENLIGHTEN US ON THE PREPARATION OF SPINIFEX GRASS AND GUM TREE RESINS USED BY THE ABORIGINALS. ADHESIVES THAT WERE WATERPROOF SEEM TO BE PREFERRED ESPECIALLY ON WEAPONS OR TOOLS THAT WOULD SEE A LOT OF USE. I HAVE DUG UP LUMPS OF BLACK ADHESIVE IN OLD INDIAN CAMPS SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARS OLD. I HAVEN'T TESTED THEM BUT SUSPECT THEY ARE NATURAL PETROLEUM/TARS WHICH ARE HIGH IN PARAFFIN AND WATERPROOF. Last edited by VANDOO; 22nd March 2011 at 04:36 AM.

22nd March 2011, 05:32 AM	#9
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	In western Visayas particularly in Panay, the sap from the breadfruit tree (local name is kamansi) is traditionally used as blade tang adhesive. From a Hiligaynon-English dictionary: kalólot, To apply any sticky, viscous material. Ginakalólot sa ápal sang binángon ang tagók sang kamánsi. The juice of the bread-fruit is used for fastening the handle of a bolo. I think in Moroland, I think a tree sap called galgal is used. Spunjer would know this better.

20th March 2011, 03:54 AM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I recall that the first volume of Traditional Bowyer's Bible had some recipes for traditional glues used with bows. Considering the stresses bows undergo, they might work okay. F

20th March 2011, 05:16 AM	#3
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	I have a kalis tang that appear to be fixed with Tien Ta Yao Gin at least the odor and color matched . It appear to be used to lacquer the cord on the hilt as well. It is easy to find in Java but not sure about south PI. I heard gondorukem were used on keris but never find evidence, nice woody scent when heated. It is hard and bound to wooden surface alright (cord also I guess) but I would say somewhat brittle. Need to check how it bound to iron.

20th March 2011, 09:34 PM	#6
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Ok, So Damar is just pine pitch glue (Damar Pine) with some combination of charcoal, beeswax, and some other hardening/bonding agent (clay,fiber,etc). That's been helpful reading, thanks. So if I understand this right, Damar and the European cutler's resin were relatively the same in so far as they are all pine pitch glues? I found the whole process to make pitch glue nicely outlined here: http://www.survivaltopics.com/surviv...ng-pitch-glue/