Resin, traditional recipies

Tim Simmons · 18th March 2011, 10:57 AM

Gav, they very probably along with resins used "animal glue" I can still remember a rock hard pot of it in the school metalwork department. This would be better than many resins.

Gavin Nugent · 18th March 2011, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Gav, they very probably along with resins used "animal glue" I can still remember a rock hard pot of it in the school metalwork department. This would be better than many resins.

A great start thanks Tim, I'll have a look down that road.

I look forward to seeing traditional recipies of any relevant form now that you have bought this to my attention.

thanks

Gav

Neil · 18th March 2011, 03:21 PM

Hopefully this tidbit is of some interest. I have heard of fish glue being used to fasten Chinese spear heads to their shafts. Unfortunately I do not have a recipe or literary source to site. No doubt, one idea often leads to another though so I thought it was worth mentioning.

tom hyle · 18th March 2011, 09:46 PM

fish-bone/hide/hoof glue is more brittle than boiled down tree sap (pitch/resin); thus it is a good ad-hesive, but a poor co-hesive for filling large gaps, setting tangs, etc. Also, I think it remains water-soluble? Thus it is not traditionally used by professional cutlers for this pupose AFAIK although my experience of Chinese spears specifically is slight. Never seen it on a sword except as a non-professional after-market repair.
I am very interested to read about pitch/resin; tree species, thickening and application techniques, etc.

t_c · 18th March 2011, 09:46 PM

Great thought Gav - an official glue thread!
I'll try to make a humble contribution in regards to a Japanese "rice glue". If I remember the process correctly, one would grind down rice to a fine powder (mortar and pedestal) and then add water to make a paste. Apply the paste, let dry, and you had a semi-decent glue. I haven't tried this myself, but a friend had some mixed results with it though. Maybe someone else has better information on rice glue process.

I'd be interested in anyone's experience with making ( or information regarding) the black pitch that is found in PI and Indonesian weapons. What is that stuff?

tom

Rust Collector · 18th March 2011, 10:23 PM

There is mastic, the resin of Pistacia Lentisicus, it grows throughout the mediterranean I know it was in wide use across moughal India attaching tulwar blades to hilts. I don't remember anything about the turks using it.

asomotif · 18th March 2011, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t_c

I'd be interested in anyone's experience with making ( or information regarding) the black pitch that is found in PI and Indonesian weapons. What is that stuff?

tom

It it a mixture based on damar.
Here is a thread giving some details
: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=damar

You can buy damar maybe in specialised paint stores. (as in paint used for paintings)
But when you buy it from such a store it is than very clean and not black / dark at all.

Best regards,
Willem

Robert · 19th March 2011, 01:30 AM

I'm not sure if this is exactly what you are looking for but here are a few links on cutler's resin that might be of some interest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutler's_resin
http://www.marquis-kyle.com.au/mt/000646.htm
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/i...e;topic=4491.0

Robert

tom hyle · 19th March 2011, 03:55 AM

The cutler's resin Robert mentions sounds like the stuff European cutlers use/used in table cutlery. It is rather chalky and not suitable for sword tangs.
I have a chunk of tree resin out of a tulwar hilt that is reinforced with twisted copper wires a-la re-bar.
The use of the right tree is important and from what I read in old sources, the process is rather tricky to get "just right"
Also, modern artist's/jeweler's black pitch is not the same by any means as the stuff inside old Asian sword handles, BTW. Specifically, it is softer, in my experience.

kronckew · 19th March 2011, 09:15 AM

nepali 'laha' used to glue on khukuri grips is made from tree resin and buffalo dung (for the fibre), maybe with a bit of beeswax. smells wonderful when heated

David · 22nd March 2011, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

It it a mixture based on damar.
Here is a thread giving some details
: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=damar

You can buy damar maybe in specialised paint stores. (as in paint used for paintings)
But when you buy it from such a store it is than very clean and not black / dark at all.

Best regards,
Willem

Thanks Willem, i've been looking for this old thread.

tunggulametung · 23rd March 2011, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

yep, galgal is indeed used, but i'm not sure if that's the colloquial term for sap, or the name of the tree itself.

Pine tar might be the one used to seal the rope that wrap the hilt, just a guess since it has similar properties with Tien Ta Yao Gin

, maybe one of the ingredients of galgal too.

@ Migueldiaz, yes sukun is similar but kluwih has more esoteric properties in Java

, but I'll try both whenever possible. The fruit sap is sticky that you want to oil the knife before you cut, but I think the gata is too weak to serve the purpose, I'll try the one from the tree

.

PUFF · 23rd March 2011, 08:29 AM

Thailand and many S/E Asian country use Damar composite and mentioned above. The the resin source and detailed recipe might be different as they are heavily relied on local availability.

Some variants for smaller knives are natural lacquer (insect origin) or other thermoplastic. Modern smiths may use scavenged polystyrene or polyethylene from junk yard as they used thermoplastic process for ages.

18th March 2011, 10:57 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Gav, they very probably along with resins used "animal glue" I can still remember a rock hard pot of it in the school metalwork department. This would be better than many resins.

18th March 2011, 03:21 PM	#3
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 114	Hopefully this tidbit is of some interest. I have heard of fish glue being used to fasten Chinese spear heads to their shafts. Unfortunately I do not have a recipe or literary source to site. No doubt, one idea often leads to another though so I thought it was worth mentioning.

18th March 2011, 09:46 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	fish-bone/hide/hoof glue is more brittle than boiled down tree sap (pitch/resin); thus it is a good ad-hesive, but a poor co-hesive for filling large gaps, setting tangs, etc. Also, I think it remains water-soluble? Thus it is not traditionally used by professional cutlers for this pupose AFAIK although my experience of Chinese spears specifically is slight. Never seen it on a sword except as a non-professional after-market repair. I am very interested to read about pitch/resin; tree species, thickening and application techniques, etc.

18th March 2011, 09:46 PM	#5
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Great thought Gav - an official glue thread! I'll try to make a humble contribution in regards to a Japanese "rice glue". If I remember the process correctly, one would grind down rice to a fine powder (mortar and pedestal) and then add water to make a paste. Apply the paste, let dry, and you had a semi-decent glue. I haven't tried this myself, but a friend had some mixed results with it though. Maybe someone else has better information on rice glue process. I'd be interested in anyone's experience with making ( or information regarding) the black pitch that is found in PI and Indonesian weapons. What is that stuff? tom

18th March 2011, 10:23 PM	#6
Rust Collector Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 11	There is mastic, the resin of Pistacia Lentisicus, it grows throughout the mediterranean I know it was in wide use across moughal India attaching tulwar blades to hilts. I don't remember anything about the turks using it.

19th March 2011, 01:30 AM	#8
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I'm not sure if this is exactly what you are looking for but here are a few links on cutler's resin that might be of some interest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutler's_resin http://www.marquis-kyle.com.au/mt/000646.htm http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/i...e;topic=4491.0 Robert

19th March 2011, 03:55 AM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The cutler's resin Robert mentions sounds like the stuff European cutlers use/used in table cutlery. It is rather chalky and not suitable for sword tangs. I have a chunk of tree resin out of a tulwar hilt that is reinforced with twisted copper wires a-la re-bar. The use of the right tree is important and from what I read in old sources, the process is rather tricky to get "just right" Also, modern artist's/jeweler's black pitch is not the same by any means as the stuff inside old Asian sword handles, BTW. Specifically, it is softer, in my experience.

19th March 2011, 09:15 AM	#10
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	nepali 'laha' used to glue on khukuri grips is made from tree resin and buffalo dung (for the fibre), maybe with a bit of beeswax. smells wonderful when heated

23rd March 2011, 08:29 AM	#13
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Thailand and many S/E Asian country use Damar composite and mentioned above. The the resin source and detailed recipe might be different as they are heavily relied on local availability. Some variants for smaller knives are natural lacquer (insect origin) or other thermoplastic. Modern smiths may use scavenged polystyrene or polyethylene from junk yard as they used thermoplastic process for ages.