Javanese keris titles - when and how are they bestowed?

A. G. Maisey · 6th March 2011, 12:14 PM

Amuk Murugal, some hours ago I responded to your post # 11.

I had read your post, given it very little thought, simply accepted it as your honest statement of how you saw the matter, and responded as I felt, which was that you had a tremendous advantage over myself because of your great gift for being able to access in an instinctive way, knowledge that is not freely available. As you have told us, you have not needed to carry out any research, you simply know things, and can access that knowledge "accumulated by successive generations" without any effort on your part.

This does not surprise me, I accept that there are some people who have the gift of communion with those who have passed away in previous times, and who can access knowledge both exoteric and esoteric, more or less at the drop of a hat.This gift you have is indeed a great and wondrous one, as the knowledge which you can so freely access is the heritage of a culture that is neither your own, since you were not born in Indonesia, nor of the culture of which you seem to be a part, that of Sunda. I do not doubt for a moment your gift, as I am well aware that there are people who are gifted in this manner.

However, and here is my problem, since I wrote my post # 12 I have received several emails which have expressed disappointment in my response to you because of my failure to raise with you your , and I quote :-

"--- insulting remarks directed at both you and your highly respected teacher, Empu Suparman Supawijaya (alm.) ---".

The "you" in this quote is of course directed at me.

Amuk Murugal, I took no umbrage at your remarks, if anything, I interpreted those remarks as slightly complimentary, however, it does seem that your remarks have upset some people. The specific remark to which these people took exception is:-

"Ah yes, Suparman, the Los Indios Tabajaras, of the keris world. A man of good fortune!"

I cannot detect insult in this, except perhaps for the regrettable lack of title, which a person of Empu Suparman's stature surely does deserve, but as you say, you were not born an Indonesian, and you are not now Indonesian, so I was more than prepared to overlook this lapse of respect on your part, which I am certain was absolutely unintentional.

I must admit, I do not really understand this remark, so even in the absence of an insult perceived by others, I probably should have asked you to clarify your intent --- but then, I am often a little too relaxed.

However, I would greatly appreciate it if you would be so kind as to explain exactly what you meant by this remark of yours that I have quoted above.

It disturbs me that a post which I took to be non-confrontational and mildly complimentary could be interpreted by others to be grossly disrespectful and insulting.

Could you please assist by dispelling this misconception?

Thank you for your cooperation.

David · 6th March 2011, 06:02 PM

Amuk Murugul, i am likewise concerned about your statements. While i am having a hard time seeing any intended disrespect in your comparison to Empu Suparman to Los Indios Tabarjaras, i am having a hard time making sense of it. Firstly because THEY were a Brazil duo and they played guitars. What possible comparison are you making here?

Amuk Murugul · 12th March 2011, 09:50 PM

Hullo everybody,

I apologise for my tardiness.
I thought that I had finished with this thread.
But, as was just recently pointed out to me, apparently not.

WRT ..... my throw-away comment re: Los Indios:
I viewed THE GROUP, rather than the individuals in it, as the 'entity'.
Similarity?
From obscure/humble beginnings and the lack of formal training in the area where they eventually became renowned.

Alan,
May I remind you that Sunda is not a subset of Indonesia (while geographically, at the moment, that may be so). Sunda and Indonesia are two 'groups' which have an area of 'intersection'; thus they share the same subset.

On the matter of 'insult':
Experience has taught me that, generally, the people who regard the most microscopic of slights as the most monumental of insults are the 'Hyacinth Bucket's of this world (but who may also lack the courage of their conviction).(I'd be surprised if any of your complainants were 'Wong Dalem').
Viz. Back in your neighbourhood: When incidents like the one dubbed 'The Lizard Of Oz' occurred, who bleated the loudest?

BTW ..... on a MUCH LIGHTER NOTE ..... I noticed that you misspelt my name in your last post. Am I to read something into that?

I now consider my input to this thread ended.

Best,

A. G. Maisey · 13th March 2011, 07:11 AM

I apologise for misspelling your name Amuk Murugul.

Pure error on my part. It is an unusual name, and the word misspelt is one I would only use if addressing you. There are no hidden messages in my error.

Thank you for your explanation of the Los Indios reference.

As I explained in my previous post, I did not read any insult into your comment, however, at least five other people did, two of these people were Javanese, one of whom had known Pak Parman, two were European, and one was from the USA. I must admit that these reactions did surprise me just a little, but that they should come from such a wide sample of nationalities and age groups indicates to me that possibly my own attitude towards what constitutes an insult is perhaps a little too laid back.

I hope that your explanation will satisfy those who saw insult in your previous post, and that they will understand that you were in fact complimenting Pak Parman, not slighting him in any way. Again I thank you for your response.

I have noted your resignation from further participation in this thread.

I find this to be regrettable, but under the circumstances, I can understand your action.

I do hope that you will continue to share your unique knowledge with us into the future.

PenangsangII · 14th March 2011, 02:59 AM

Very enlightening thread, so shall we get back to it.....

IMHO, the prefix "sang" is not a title, but rather a descriptive title of a person or a keris. Most of the prefix "sang", as far as I know is often used in Malay / Sriwijaya spheres.

A. G. Maisey · 14th March 2011, 03:40 AM

Yes Penangsang, "sang" is not a title.

It is an honorific marker that is used with those above one, especially with notables.

Sang is quite often used in sarcasm.

It goes in tandem with "si" which is a deprecatory marker that is used for people with whom one is familiar, and also for small children.

For instance, you might be talking about a neighbour's 5 year old son and you might say " Si Sigit is a naughty little boy"

Or you might use "si mbok" to refer to your mother when speaking with a sibling

But then you might be talking about Sigit's father who is self opinionated and more than a bit arrogant, so you might say "Sang Sudarmo -----". This would be sarcastic usage.

But used in its proper way it indicates respect for an exalted person. You would never say "si lurah", but you might well say "sang lurah"
( a lurah is a middle ranking area administrator)

In respect of a keris, where that keris was named as, for instance, Kyai Setya, you could use Sang Kyai Setya. (setya is faithful)

PenangsangII · 14th March 2011, 05:24 AM

Thank you Alan, and as usual your explanation transcends beyond what I already knew....

WRT keris names... I know its mostly up to the owner to give titles such as "Kyai" or even "Kanjeng Kyai". But what about the name itself... for example, our pusaka made by an empu, once the keris is ready, before its taken to mranggi, the keris normally has a name - and not simply a name given by the empu or owner, but rather, in my personal experience, given by the "keris / wesi aji's sukma" thru the empu. In another word, its not up to us to name the keris "kyai so and so". In this aspect, I would like to inquire whether the above holds true from your own and Mpu Suparman's experience.

12th March 2011, 09:50 PM	#3
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	Hullo everybody, I apologise for my tardiness. I thought that I had finished with this thread. But, as was just recently pointed out to me, apparently not. WRT ..... my throw-away comment re: Los Indios: I viewed THE GROUP, rather than the individuals in it, as the 'entity'. Similarity? From obscure/humble beginnings and the lack of formal training in the area where they eventually became renowned. Alan, May I remind you that Sunda is not a subset of Indonesia (while geographically, at the moment, that may be so). Sunda and Indonesia are two 'groups' which have an area of 'intersection'; thus they share the same subset. On the matter of 'insult': Experience has taught me that, generally, the people who regard the most microscopic of slights as the most monumental of insults are the 'Hyacinth Bucket's of this world (but who may also lack the courage of their conviction).(I'd be surprised if any of your complainants were 'Wong Dalem'). Viz. Back in your neighbourhood: When incidents like the one dubbed 'The Lizard Of Oz' occurred, who bleated the loudest? BTW ..... on a MUCH LIGHTER NOTE ..... I noticed that you misspelt my name in your last post. Am I to read something into that? I now consider my input to this thread ended. Best, Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 12th March 2011 at 11:19 PM.

6th March 2011, 12:14 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Amuk Murugal, some hours ago I responded to your post # 11. I had read your post, given it very little thought, simply accepted it as your honest statement of how you saw the matter, and responded as I felt, which was that you had a tremendous advantage over myself because of your great gift for being able to access in an instinctive way, knowledge that is not freely available. As you have told us, you have not needed to carry out any research, you simply know things, and can access that knowledge "accumulated by successive generations" without any effort on your part. This does not surprise me, I accept that there are some people who have the gift of communion with those who have passed away in previous times, and who can access knowledge both exoteric and esoteric, more or less at the drop of a hat.This gift you have is indeed a great and wondrous one, as the knowledge which you can so freely access is the heritage of a culture that is neither your own, since you were not born in Indonesia, nor of the culture of which you seem to be a part, that of Sunda. I do not doubt for a moment your gift, as I am well aware that there are people who are gifted in this manner. However, and here is my problem, since I wrote my post # 12 I have received several emails which have expressed disappointment in my response to you because of my failure to raise with you your , and I quote :- "--- insulting remarks directed at both you and your highly respected teacher, Empu Suparman Supawijaya (alm.) ---". The "you" in this quote is of course directed at me. Amuk Murugal, I took no umbrage at your remarks, if anything, I interpreted those remarks as slightly complimentary, however, it does seem that your remarks have upset some people. The specific remark to which these people took exception is:- "Ah yes, Suparman, the Los Indios Tabajaras, of the keris world. A man of good fortune!" I cannot detect insult in this, except perhaps for the regrettable lack of title, which a person of Empu Suparman's stature surely does deserve, but as you say, you were not born an Indonesian, and you are not now Indonesian, so I was more than prepared to overlook this lapse of respect on your part, which I am certain was absolutely unintentional. I must admit, I do not really understand this remark, so even in the absence of an insult perceived by others, I probably should have asked you to clarify your intent --- but then, I am often a little too relaxed. However, I would greatly appreciate it if you would be so kind as to explain exactly what you meant by this remark of yours that I have quoted above. It disturbs me that a post which I took to be non-confrontational and mildly complimentary could be interpreted by others to be grossly disrespectful and insulting. Could you please assist by dispelling this misconception? Thank you for your cooperation.

6th March 2011, 06:02 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Amuk Murugul, i am likewise concerned about your statements. While i am having a hard time seeing any intended disrespect in your comparison to Empu Suparman to Los Indios Tabarjaras, i am having a hard time making sense of it. Firstly because THEY were a Brazil duo and they played guitars. What possible comparison are you making here?

13th March 2011, 07:11 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I apologise for misspelling your name Amuk Murugul. Pure error on my part. It is an unusual name, and the word misspelt is one I would only use if addressing you. There are no hidden messages in my error. Thank you for your explanation of the Los Indios reference. As I explained in my previous post, I did not read any insult into your comment, however, at least five other people did, two of these people were Javanese, one of whom had known Pak Parman, two were European, and one was from the USA. I must admit that these reactions did surprise me just a little, but that they should come from such a wide sample of nationalities and age groups indicates to me that possibly my own attitude towards what constitutes an insult is perhaps a little too laid back. I hope that your explanation will satisfy those who saw insult in your previous post, and that they will understand that you were in fact complimenting Pak Parman, not slighting him in any way. Again I thank you for your response. I have noted your resignation from further participation in this thread. I find this to be regrettable, but under the circumstances, I can understand your action. I do hope that you will continue to share your unique knowledge with us into the future.

14th March 2011, 02:59 AM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Very enlightening thread, so shall we get back to it..... IMHO, the prefix "sang" is not a title, but rather a descriptive title of a person or a keris. Most of the prefix "sang", as far as I know is often used in Malay / Sriwijaya spheres.

14th March 2011, 03:40 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes Penangsang, "sang" is not a title. It is an honorific marker that is used with those above one, especially with notables. Sang is quite often used in sarcasm. It goes in tandem with "si" which is a deprecatory marker that is used for people with whom one is familiar, and also for small children. For instance, you might be talking about a neighbour's 5 year old son and you might say " Si Sigit is a naughty little boy" Or you might use "si mbok" to refer to your mother when speaking with a sibling But then you might be talking about Sigit's father who is self opinionated and more than a bit arrogant, so you might say "Sang Sudarmo -----". This would be sarcastic usage. But used in its proper way it indicates respect for an exalted person. You would never say "si lurah", but you might well say "sang lurah" ( a lurah is a middle ranking area administrator) In respect of a keris, where that keris was named as, for instance, Kyai Setya, you could use Sang Kyai Setya. (setya is faithful)

14th March 2011, 05:24 AM	#7
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Thank you Alan, and as usual your explanation transcends beyond what I already knew.... WRT keris names... I know its mostly up to the owner to give titles such as "Kyai" or even "Kanjeng Kyai". But what about the name itself... for example, our pusaka made by an empu, once the keris is ready, before its taken to mranggi, the keris normally has a name - and not simply a name given by the empu or owner, but rather, in my personal experience, given by the "keris / wesi aji's sukma" thru the empu. In another word, its not up to us to name the keris "kyai so and so". In this aspect, I would like to inquire whether the above holds true from your own and Mpu Suparman's experience.