pamor wengkon

Gustav · 11th February 2011, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Really Gustav? I have one. Also Yogyakarta, also with wengkon and also with kendit on the gonjo...

David, if you would post your's, it would be the second I would see, that's all

Absolutely no other mind in my words.

David · 11th February 2011, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

David, if you would post your's, it would be the second I would see, that's all

Absolutely no other mind in my words.

Gustav, i so rarely post images of the blades of my keris from my personal collection and i hope you don't mind that i'd rather not break that practice solely to prove a point. But i was just looking at it today, it's still there and hopefully you will take my word for it.

Gustav · 11th February 2011, 09:55 PM

David, it seems you think, I have doubts about existence of your keris. Absolutely not!

I know, you post very seldom pictures of your keris and I understand and deeply respect it. It absolutely wasn't a request to do this. I simply said:

"if you would post your's, it would be second I would see, that's all".

Oncemore, all I wanted to say in this thread is, calling this feature Kul Buntet is doubtful for me (and I could be wrong), and I have never seen this on a Javanese keris before (and now I do).

A. G. Maisey · 11th February 2011, 10:34 PM

I've seen this effect in the blumbangan in a few keris, I don't know how many, I haven't kept score, but the best example I know of is in a Peninsula keris that is in a friend's collection.

I don't think we can call it a kul buntet, because the kul buntet is a separately forged coil of material that is applied to the blade, this effect shown here in the blumbangan appears to have been created by cutting through layers of pamor, which in itself demonstrates a high degree of skill and beautiful forge control.

If in fact it is a coil of pamor material that has been inserted as a plug into the blumbangan, it would be more correct to call it a puser. Examination under magnification should allow determination of one or the other.

The wengkon is a seemingly simple pamor, but in fact it is one of the most difficult pamors to forge. It is only very, very recently that a couple of current era makers have mastered the production of this pamor. The example shown here is a nice one.

Marco, does the gonjo have a central line of pamor on its top face, as well as its side faces?

Marcokeris · 12th February 2011, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

....Marco, does the gonjo have a central line of pamor on its top face, as well as its side faces?

No Alan there is not any lines.

A. G. Maisey · 12th February 2011, 04:30 AM

Thanks Marco.

David · 12th February 2011, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

David, it seems you think, I have doubts about existence of your keris. Absolutely not!

I know, you post very seldom pictures of your keris and I understand and deeply respect it. It absolutely wasn't a request to do this. I simply said:

"if you would post your's, it would be second I would see, that's all".

Oncemore, all I wanted to say in this thread is, calling this feature Kul Buntet is doubtful for me (and I could be wrong), and I have never seen this on a Javanese keris before (and now I do).

No worries Gustav. It's nice to know that my word is trusted.

In respect to Alan's response, i did have some doubts that this was kul buntet which is why i also suggested the possibility of lintang mas which from my reading is apparently to be found at the sorsoran. But it may well be something else as well. Closer examination might tell.

My own keris though is clearly a true kul buntet and the kendit on the gonjo also shows a "belt" on the top of the gonjo.

dewaruci · 2nd April 2011, 03:29 PM

I have a brojol keris with wengkon pamor ..... I hope, can useful to all

Boedhi Adhitya · 6th April 2011, 07:29 AM

As I know it here in Java, this kind of pamor in blumbangan called 'tlaga membeng'. "Tlaga" means lake, (much bigger than "blumbang"= pond/fishing pond), "membeng" is rippling water, the effect you get if you throw a stone in the middle of a lake/pond.

It is a very positive pamor. Some are intentionally made, as Marco's, and some aren't. Those who aren't usually came in Beras Wutah or Pedharingan Kebak pamor.

On Marco's keris, it's made by the precise cutting of blumbangan through the wengkon line. It also need a precise forging so the wengkon line laid where it should.

The best I've seen is a keris with Adeg Wengkon and Tlaga Membeng. Black and shining iron, grey-greenish edge/steel, sharp, white pamor. A pamor lines on each side of ganja. As perfect as if you draw it with a scriber.

Simple pamor, but not simple to make.

No, I don't make up the term 'Tlaga Membeng' if ones wondering

A. G. Maisey · 7th April 2011, 12:23 AM

Thank you for sharing your opinion with us Pak Boedhi.

It is certain the telaga ngembeng ( membeng, membleng) is a well recognised pamor, however, in my understanding it is an accidental pamor (pamor tiban), it cannot be an intentionally made pamor, and it cannot be created by the insertion of a piece of coiled pamor.

Looking at Marco's blade I am uncertain if this effect has been created by insertion of a separate piece of pamor or not.

In the example posted by Gustav, it is clear that the lake is formed by pamor already within the body of the blade, however, the exposure of this pamor is so perfect that I doubt it is an accidental exposure.

I accept that different interpretations of pamor motifs exist, and I accept that what you have posted is your understanding of what constitutes pamor tlaga membeng.

2nd April 2011, 03:29 PM	#8
dewaruci Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Central Java Posts: 13	I have a brojol keris with wengkon pamor ..... I hope, can useful to all Attached Images

11th February 2011, 09:55 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	David, it seems you think, I have doubts about existence of your keris. Absolutely not! I know, you post very seldom pictures of your keris and I understand and deeply respect it. It absolutely wasn't a request to do this. I simply said: "if you would post your's, it would be second I would see, that's all". Oncemore, all I wanted to say in this thread is, calling this feature Kul Buntet is doubtful for me (and I could be wrong), and I have never seen this on a Javanese keris before (and now I do).

11th February 2011, 10:34 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I've seen this effect in the blumbangan in a few keris, I don't know how many, I haven't kept score, but the best example I know of is in a Peninsula keris that is in a friend's collection. I don't think we can call it a kul buntet, because the kul buntet is a separately forged coil of material that is applied to the blade, this effect shown here in the blumbangan appears to have been created by cutting through layers of pamor, which in itself demonstrates a high degree of skill and beautiful forge control. If in fact it is a coil of pamor material that has been inserted as a plug into the blumbangan, it would be more correct to call it a puser. Examination under magnification should allow determination of one or the other. The wengkon is a seemingly simple pamor, but in fact it is one of the most difficult pamors to forge. It is only very, very recently that a couple of current era makers have mastered the production of this pamor. The example shown here is a nice one. Marco, does the gonjo have a central line of pamor on its top face, as well as its side faces?

12th February 2011, 04:30 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thanks Marco.

6th April 2011, 07:29 AM	#9
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	As I know it here in Java, this kind of pamor in blumbangan called 'tlaga membeng'. "Tlaga" means lake, (much bigger than "blumbang"= pond/fishing pond), "membeng" is rippling water, the effect you get if you throw a stone in the middle of a lake/pond. It is a very positive pamor. Some are intentionally made, as Marco's, and some aren't. Those who aren't usually came in Beras Wutah or Pedharingan Kebak pamor. On Marco's keris, it's made by the precise cutting of blumbangan through the wengkon line. It also need a precise forging so the wengkon line laid where it should. The best I've seen is a keris with Adeg Wengkon and Tlaga Membeng. Black and shining iron, grey-greenish edge/steel, sharp, white pamor. A pamor lines on each side of ganja. As perfect as if you draw it with a scriber. Simple pamor, but not simple to make. No, I don't make up the term 'Tlaga Membeng' if ones wondering

7th April 2011, 12:23 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thank you for sharing your opinion with us Pak Boedhi. It is certain the telaga ngembeng ( membeng, membleng) is a well recognised pamor, however, in my understanding it is an accidental pamor (pamor tiban), it cannot be an intentionally made pamor, and it cannot be created by the insertion of a piece of coiled pamor. Looking at Marco's blade I am uncertain if this effect has been created by insertion of a separate piece of pamor or not. In the example posted by Gustav, it is clear that the lake is formed by pamor already within the body of the blade, however, the exposure of this pamor is so perfect that I doubt it is an accidental exposure. I accept that different interpretations of pamor motifs exist, and I accept that what you have posted is your understanding of what constitutes pamor tlaga membeng.